Clergy Wellbeing Down Under
Welcome to the official first podcast of the Centre for Effective Serving, a research and consulting organisation focused on vocational wellbeing, burnout prevention, and training. In Season 1 we are focussing on Clergy Wellbeing Down Under. In Season 2 we looked at how ministry kids locally and on the mission field are doing.
In today's fast-paced and demanding world, support for those who serve by leadership is more crucial than ever. However, the pressures and challenges that come with leadership roles can often lead to burnout and exhaustion, both mentally and physically. At the Centre for Effective Serving, we understand the significance of addressing these issues head-on to create a healthier and more productive leadership landscape.
In each episode we delve into the latest research and resources developed by our team of experts, who are dedicated to enhancing leadership wellbeing and fostering a supportive environment for leaders to thrive. Our podcast provides valuable insights, evidence-based strategies, and practical tips to help leaders and their families maintain their well-being, improve their resilience, and prevent burnout.
Join us as we bring on renowned experts in the fields of psychology, mental health, leadership, and well-being to share their knowledge and experiences. Through candid interviews and engaging discussions, we explore various topics, including stress management techniques, emotional intelligence, work-life integration, team building, and much more.
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Clergy Wellbeing Down Under
The Pastor's Kid Part 2 with Barnabas Piper
Join me, Valerie Ling, for part 2, as I sit down with Barnabas Piper, author, pastor and son of theologian John Piper, for a candid and helpful conversation about being a pastor's kid. Barnabas shares his personal story of navigating life as a pastor's kid, where the blend of public scrutiny and private faith creates a unique tension of identity and independence.
Get the full report of our survey findings here
"Pastors' kids are often burdened by others' expectations, but there is a wonderful solution, both at home and in the church: grace. In this revised, refreshed version of Barnabas Piper's best-known book, the author candidly shares his own experiences as son of pastor and bestselling author John Piper, offering a challenge to our churches and to the families at their very heart: how to care for pastors' kids and allow them to find their own faith and identity. Foreword by John Piper." Quoted from The Wandering Bookseller where you can get the copy of Barnabas Piper's book - The Pastor's Kid: What it's like and how to help.
Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
Hey there, I'm Valerie Ling and I'm a clinical psychologist and I will be your host for Season 2's episodes titled the Ministry Kids' Well-Being Down Under Episodes. We asked 100 ministry kids how they are doing. These are Australian kids who are either serving with their family locally or serving abroad on the field. If you haven't already done so, I recommend catching up on episode one, where I share the main findings from our survey. Every episode I'll talk to someone whom I hope will be able to help us understand and unpack what the kids told us. I hope you enjoy it. Let's do it.
Speaker 1:You've said here in your book the more people know about a person, the more they think they know them, and that is to say, the more they assume about them. As a PK, it can be tremendously difficult to get from known of to known because of these assumptions. And then you say PKs want to be in relationships that cut through the facades and fronts and unearth insecurities and needs. And you talk about your friendships being really important there. How did you get to the point where you even had the time to make friends? Because a lot of ministry kids say that they're really involved in church or they can't go hang out on the weekends and there are strict rules about going to parties and things like that. How did you get to that point?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. There's a few things's a few things. That one I grew up in the nineties so there was a minimal internet anything, which means that there was a lot of what people say they don't have time for now it's just because they waste time doing other things. So, but some of that was was my parents we, we, like I, played sports growing up, but we didn't do the uh, the rigorous travel sports where every weekend is a tournament somewhere. In fact, that didn't. That. That was not nearly as prominent when I was a kid. So those are the kinds of things that that that can take up people's time. Now that we didn't deal with, but a lot of it was.
Speaker 2:Our family's rhythm of life was pretty simple. It was very full, but it was mostly full of people. So, yes, there was Wednesday night church and Sunday church and then any other gatherings of church we were part of. But Friday nights and Saturdays were not committed to church events, or at least I wasn't obligated to go. So I was able to spend time with friends and go do sleepovers at friends' houses.
Speaker 2:The other thing and this was a sweet kindness to me and I don't know that it's just duplicable, I don't think everybody could have it necessarily was all of my closest friends were through church. So I was at a variety of different schools growing up. I was at a few different private schools, some public schools and none of my close friends were ever through school. They were always through church, which means that church became a social hub where we would go to Wednesday night youth group or whatever, but then before or after was time with friends, whatever, but then before or after was time with friends, or after church on Sundays would go to a friend's house for the afternoon or have friends over to my house, and so there was just there was kind of a built in rhythm where church really was the hub of social life for me and that was.
Speaker 2:That was something that I, you know I wouldn't trade for anything. Those were. Those were really wonderful opportunities. Another advantage that I had that a lot, you know, I wouldn't trade for anything. Those were. Those were really wonderful opportunities. Another advantage that I had that a lot of pastors, kids don't is that my dad was at the same church for 33 years. Oh yeah, If there's a pastor, yeah, you know, if the ministry situation is transient, if there's a lot of moving, friendships are really difficult and you're always the new person, and so there's the pressure, is as bad as it ever is without the deep relationships.
Speaker 1:Actually that's a stat that I just ran this morning because I had a journalist that prompted me to go and look at my stats again, which was a little frightening, but I'm glad I did it. But that did come out. The moving and the social disruptions on loneliness and a kid's mood is there. So I think you're right. It's that intentionality of recognizing it's, if you've got a busy ministry life and the world's complicated and your kids aren't getting their friendships needs mad, we got to stop and ask them what, what we can be intentional about now. I love these assumptions that you've written down that people have and I'm just going to walk around that that the pastor's kid comes with a ready-made pastor at home. This is not true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's the assumption that like it must be awesome to have have your dad, who's like the sermon maker, at home and all of this, yeah, that to this day I have to periodically kind of adjust my interactions with my dad to be like we're having a conversation, this is not a sermon, those kinds of things Like I just I just want to, I just want to get your advice on things and not not have sort of the council answer and all of the you know the, the sort of the office answer as opposed to the home answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. What is that? What's what's you said that you've, even to this day, have to be intentional? Is that something that you run through your brain? Is that something that you say to your dad? I mean, what is that?
Speaker 2:about At this point.
Speaker 2:It's more a matter of how I pose a question to make sure that it's really clear that this is colloquial, this is conversational, not Because he just he has preached thousands of hours of sermons and he is deep in the text and so his like, he just sort of gravitates towards that way of thinking and communicating.
Speaker 2:And so the way that I do it now is to often is to try to get him to start with stories. So we had a conversation recently. He was in town visiting and I was asking for advice about some church leadership things. But I just started with hey, when you, you know, in the 1980s, when Bethlehem Baptist was this size church, what was it like when this and this? To kind of draw out the narrative, because he's delightful in those contexts and it's not been a lesson, I think, for when I was younger I didn't have any tools in the toolbox to help adjust that, and so I, but I, but I would say that burden lies mostly on the parent, not on the pastor's kid, to be conscientious of how we are slipping into pastory stuff rather than parental care in those moments.
Speaker 1:I mean, do you catch yourself doing it now as a parent?
Speaker 2:Yes, sadly. Yes, you know, all of us become our parents when we get older in ways that we love, in ways that we don't. That's one that I go. I wish I had that under control. So one of the ways that I work hard to not slip into that is humor, if I can keep things, and again, not to make serious matters not serious, but to make sure that the interaction is marked by joy and fun, more than sit down and listen to me expound at you. Yeah, sometimes.
Speaker 2:I do that but I work hard not to slip into that more than sit down and listen to me expound at you. Sometimes I do that, but I work hard not to slip into that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, look, I'm a psychologist and I think my children get it more from me being a psychologist than their dad, and it is like I always have a framework for something I've got some. Oh well, let me share with you this theory of social identity, and they have to tell me, you know, they kind of have to signal to me stop it, um, you know, we just want you to listen, just as a regular human who has no education, um, and no degree in this, um, but that possibly the, the so being a dad, being, being a parent at home, do you think that that means? Then there's assumption that the kids' spiritual needs, their mentoring, the discipleship needs are being met at home and they can get forgotten in that space.
Speaker 2:Do you mean that it's easy for the pastor to think that it's just sort of tacitly being taken care of, or for people outside to assume that the kids are being squared away and taken care of?
Speaker 1:Probably both.
Speaker 2:I think well, yes, I think the answer is probably yes on both fronts to some degree. I think those outside of the pastor's family make assumptions, and I don't know if these are on that list of five, but they're in the book, I know this. There's the assumption that the pastor's kid is knowledgeable about scripture and generally has a healthy faith, because they come from the house where the sermons come from, so they must be good to go. I think it's more subtle for the pastor. You know kind of thinking. If I'm spending many hours per week studying the scripture, talking about the scripture, counseling people in scripture, then my kids are probably good. Or and this happens sometimes too there is an over, kind of an over-discipling of your kids, which is an odd phrase, but I think it's a real thing. Discipling of your kids, which is an odd phrase, but I think it's a real thing.
Speaker 2:Pastors and I heard a pastor say this one time who pastored the same church for 30 or 40 years faithful man, he said often pastors should probably do family devotions less than other people. Other people need to be injecting the word into their home life because the kid's not getting it anywhere else. Pastors might need to back off of that a bit sometimes, because you can actually kind of assault your kids with scripture and I felt that growing up there were times when I resented the opening of the Bible, because it just felt like this again we're doing this thing again. We've done that. We did it this morning, we're doing it this evening, we're going to do it at church again tomorrow. Again, we're doing this thing again. We've done that. We did it this morning, we're doing it this evening, we're gonna do it at church again tomorrow. Like it.
Speaker 2:I would have. I would have benefited, I think, from something more along the lines of how can we pray for you? And sort of so that the reality of relationship with God, without the sort of structured study of things so yeah, there's, it can come from both sides. That's, kids are, I think, are sort of spiritually neglected or due to assumptions.
Speaker 1:Somewhere along the line I think I heard it on another podcast that you did. You talked about how it can be difficult for pastor's kids to doubt or to have contrary ideas to their ministry parents. Was that a thing for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's absolutely a thing for pastor's kids in general. It certainly was for me. That was one where, again, I was probably in my 20s before I could have even articulated what my doubts were, because the context I grew up in was so biblically saturated and the teaching was so thorough that there was an answer for everything. At least that was my perception. There was very little room for I don't know, even when it came to sort of the big mysteries of God. There was a thoughtful answer to every question, and so I had all the answers that I was handed. But I didn't necessarily have a satisfied heart, which is where a lot of those doubts come from. So it was a long time before I could even articulate. I'm not sure I buy that, or I'm not sure I believe that or I don't know how like that answer was given, but I don't find it satisfactory. So for me the doubts were very suppressed and kind of found their way out later in some unhealthy ways in my 20s.
Speaker 2:And then I think there are other pastor's kids in church contexts, especially on your more fundamentalist side, where questions are explicitly condemned. You know, if we can't ask that, we just trust this and those kinds of things, so they just get squashed, and that's. That's one of those things that I look at and I go if, if we are not making room for genuine questions, which are often expressed as doubts, how does faith grow? How does a pastor's kid come to a place of embracing a rich faith in Christ without having worked through the hard stuff? And if we leave no room for it or we give simple answers for it or pat answers for it, we're doing a disservice to their faith.
Speaker 1:So what's the way through this? Because I'm thinking we don't want to wait till they're 20 or 25 and gone through the desert experience. I mean, sometimes they have to go through it, but what's the way through it? When you're a kid, is it ever possible, if you're in a ministry family, to be able to talk about your doubts and challenge some of the things that you're hearing across the pulpit?
Speaker 2:I think. I think it's very. It is incumbent on the parents to create a context of, of inviting the kids into posing questions, and something is there's. There's a few that that I think can be helpful in this. Now, again, none of them are sort of the key, but just outright saying that you can ask anything here. This is a safe context to ask questions. You don't have to. If I say something and you're not sure about it, like, ask me about it, let's talk about it. So just the general opening of the door, as opposed to the thing that pastors do by accident, which is sort of we have an authoritative, knowledgeable presence and so if we say we declare something in a sermon or at the dinner table, it feels rebellious to push back against that instead of an open invitation to say I don't understand that, or really are you sure, or whatever.
Speaker 2:I think the other thing that we can do is tell stories.
Speaker 2:I have tried to share with my kids the full spectrum of doubts, struggles, sins, idiocy from my past, with age-appropriate details. So when they were seven they didn't get the whole story, but at 18, they get real close to the whole story because they're trying to make decisions where they need the full spectrum of details on the cost of sin and the benefit of walking with Jesus and the wonders of close friends and these kinds of things. So the stories are powerful too, because it takes a pastor from sort of inhuman Bible robot into oh, this is just a sinful dude who the Lord has done some really kind things in and for over the years. I discovered when my kids hit their teenage years that teenagers don't think of their parents as human. I think that's true for all parents. That's not pastor specifically. They forget that we have emotions. They forget that we screwed up once upon a time. They forget that we, you know these things are they just they disassociate those things from us, and so stories are kind of that, the humanizing aspect of this.
Speaker 1:I really like that, telling our stories in our journey through doubt, because, you know, at one point we would have had our doubts as well. I think it's a really healthy thing to doubt well, isn't it? It's actually a life skill. That's great for our kids to be able to dialogue with the things that we are uncertain about or that we disagree about.
Speaker 1:I love how in your book you talked about obstacles to grace. You know, we had kind of a little bit of the intel to do the surveys because as a group of psychologists we see quite a lot of ministry kids and we do encounter those obstacles to grace. So the fake forgiveness, like I think, ministry kids sometimes get all of their sins remembered from the time that they were seven to 17. Evidence that their hearts have not yet been transformed. Um, or, you know this. You kind of have no room to make mistakes. You should have known better. Like you know you, you've, you've had all the tools given to you to know that that was not the way to handle the situation. These obstacles to grace, I think is part of the reason why we have kids in ministry who struggle. How are you finding that now as a parent for yourself? Because it's so easy to reach for those tools to get your kids to just comply to get your kids to just comply.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, setting aside the pastor aspect, parenting in that regard is just profoundly difficult as a Christian, because you desperately want to see your children walk with Jesus and you can't make them. And those are two things that just exist in every day. I want my kids to follow Jesus. I cannot generate that in them. So what are the things that happen between that desire and that result that I can foster that? But the obstacles to grace are the temptation trying to accelerate things beyond the pace that the Holy Spirit is working. Generally speaking, you know, whether that's through guilt or pressure or berating, and and that's, it is a, it's a, it's a profound temptation to do that. And so in in terms of trying to, I guess, resist those temptations and find a more fruitful way to do it, I would say I regularly fall short.
Speaker 2:But one of the things that I have learned is the power of asking for forgiveness from my kids. And again, this is true for parents in ministry or out of ministry. But when we blow it every day, probably to some degree, whether it's whether it's losing the temper, whether it is disregarding them and not listening, all the things that parents just fall into and do we, we owe it to our kids to go back and say I was wrong, I sinned against you in this way or I failed in this way. Would you forgive me? Not just yep, I was in the wrong, but a genuine, because you are putting yourself at the mercy of your kids.
Speaker 2:That's what forgiveness, that's what asking for forgiveness is. It's basically saying I owe you, would you relieve that debt? And what that does, I hope, and what that does, I hope, is create a context where the kids recognize, over time, a forgiveness applies to. The need for forgiveness applies to everybody, and it's not so. It's not just their sins that I need to forgive, it is our sins that we need to be forgiven of before God. And so there's hopefully then a context of grace and that's you know. So responding graciously in those ways.
Speaker 2:I think I think actively showing mercy. We have to discipline our kids and you know every family has to make the decisions on the appropriate ways to do that. But when your kids are wrong, you have to discipline them. But one of the things that we have the opportunity to do in reflecting God's character to our kids and God's grace is to say, yeah, because you did X, you deserve a punishment of some kind, but I'm going to show you mercy. And then it's just a quick jump to say, because God shows us so much mercy and so you know you have to be judicious and when and how to do that. But those kinds of things where you're bringing in just a clear depiction of God's unmatched, unexplainable kindness to us, those are things that I try to do us. Those are things that I try to do.
Speaker 2:And then the third thing I would say is more environmental, in the sense of it's less about an action and more about when there has been tenseness, there has been conflict, there has been discipline, there's been something to do. What I can to write the environment back to a context of joy and make sure that they're invited into it, so not just like, well, we're going to go have a good time and you can sit there and be sullen, but rather like just to try to to kind of blow some fresh air of gladness into the room or something. And that looks like a lot of different things, you know. Sometimes it's distraction, sometimes it's humor, sometimes it's a hug and just said hey, I know that was an unpleasant conversation, I really love you and let's go eat and and so, so that that sort of fresh air, let's, let's, let's move on into a context of grace.
Speaker 1:Oh, I just love that it's holding the continuous thread of I love you, constant, through all the challenges and difficulties. I agree with you and I love you. I'm really upset with you at this point in time and I love you. I think that's so lovely just how you've articulated that your dad wrote the foreword of this book that you wrote 10 years ago. I was moved from the first sentence where your dad says you will ask was it painful for me to read this book? The answer is yes. And then he goes on just to, I guess, commend that you did have the courage to write this book. What's it done for you? And sort of reflecting back on your relationship with your dad, and what's it like now for you, having gone through this process, you're now a parent yourself and you're still the kid of your father, and what's that been like for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so at the time that I wrote the book, I was, I was leery to write it because I didn't want to write a book.
Speaker 2:That was kind of when I was in the place of working through things. You know I didn't want the book to be my therapy, if you will, but rather to to arrive at some level of conclusions that I could hopefully offer. So I and, and that you know, so that took that, took some, you know, relational work, spiritual work, counseling work, to get to that place. And I was about 30 when I wrote the book, which was about the time when, um, so I'd say, through my twenties, there had been a lot of tensions with my parents, largely due to my attitudes and my posture, but also some things that they had yet to discover about growing as a parent. And so I think, writing this book, doing the work to get there, writing the book, the kindness of my dad to write the foreword, because he didn't have to say yes, and it certainly wasn't a book that was all just hugs, you know, hugs and handshakes for him, like there was. There was some, there's some criticism of tendencies of pastors, some of which are his, um, and he was gracious to do that. But I think it cracked the door open then for what has been about a decade of, I would say, ever improving conversations, affection, gratitude, mostly on my part, but then that gets reciprocated. So there's been growth on that front. You know, to the point where I can write things about my dad now that are much more just kind of a they're with no caveats, just grateful or just honoring, and and I think 10 years ago I would have, I would have felt like I had to kind of tell both sides of the story, if you will, and now I can kind of say, yeah, being a pastor's kid is hard, but here are seven reasons I'm really grateful for my dad and just just that.
Speaker 2:And so that that has been, I think, an enriching I mean, I don't think it has absolutely been an enriching thing over the course of several years. And he plays a very different role in my life now than when I was, certainly when I was younger, but he's older and I think, wiser. I'm older and I think wiser. I think both of us are probably gentler than we were. I'm now in pastoral ministry, which means there's a whole different avenue of ways that I can gain from him. He has so much wisdom to share. If I will avail myself of it, the next generation my kids, I hope have benefited from this, simply because if I have a richer and more joyful and more loving relationship with my parents, there should be a trickle down effect. Yeah, just in terms of the tone of when they come visit. It's going to be more anticipatory and more loving and more kind and I'm going to be more vocal in telling them about things that I admire about my parents, instead of just the stuff that was frustrating and those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:And you know the kindness of God that he cares for you, barnabas Piper. He cares for every one of these kids that gave us their answers. The kindness of God that there are ways that we can repair and there are ways that we can be honest and talk about the hard things, and it's given us the ability to love deeply, to forgive, to be gracious with one another, to journey, and that you know, even in hearing what you've just said, it's just wonderful to hear that you've been able to reap the benefits now and ongoing, and your kids get to experience that lovely kindness of God through your experiences. So I'm going to wrap up with three questions now. If there was a ministry kid listening to us, and probably an older child that might be listening to us, say you know, 15, 16 onwards, what's one thing you'd love for them to know?
Speaker 2:Oh man, it's so contextual just because of the particular kinds of struggles that somebody could be facing.
Speaker 2:But I think the one thing that I have said to just about every pastor's kid that I've had a chance to talk to over the last 10 years is to do all that you can to set aside whatever preconceptions you have about faith and Jesus through your church, through the pressures that have been put on you, through whatever you've been told, not saying you've received bad teaching, but just slide it to the side and actively go, seek to understand Jesus from the gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and some of the pastor's kids listening, or ministry kids listening, will go.
Speaker 2:I have read those a thousand times, that's true, you have, but the thousand and first time might be the time Jesus comes alive to you. And because that that is the singularly defining, refreshing life, altering reality is, is that the reality of Jesus? Not just the explanations of Jesus that we've heard or the stories that we've been told or the whatever, but the recognizing the person of Jesus in the pages of scripture. That was maybe the most profound thing that changed my heart and life in my 20s and I had read the Gospels, I had taught the Gospels, but there was a period of time where I was in a profoundly dry and dark spiritual place and some wise friends pointed me that direction and the Lord used it to make me fall in love with Jesus, which is the thing that I would say all of us need most.
Speaker 1:Amazing. And one thing for parents in ministry what's one thing you'd want to leave with them?
Speaker 2:The Holy Spirit has your kids. You can't save them. It is your responsibility to raise them well. But if you've blown it, if this podcast has convinced you that you have been an absolutely trash parent and you've blown it in every way, we've said, don't do that. The Holy Spirit has your kids. The Holy Spirit saves kids. The Holy Spirit brings life. The Holy Spirit, hopefully, will use you, but you do not need to fret over the souls of your kids. You need to pour into them, pray for them, love them, but not be anxious, because they're God's kids first and I think that's true for every parent, but I think pastor parents maybe are. Sometimes we're tempted by pride to think I have resources to do amazing things for my kids and sometimes we're tempted by failure. I have, I stink, I'm the worst, I've blown it. Very rarely do we live in a healthy place of. I'm trying to faithfully do my best and the Holy spirit will will get ahold of this child's heart in the right time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if there and I hope there will be churches who will be listening to this because they really want to ensure that they're taking care of kids what's the one thing you'd love to leave with churches in terms of, you know, caring for kids?
Speaker 2:That that. So a blanket answer is there has never been a pastor's family who is too prayed for. There has never been a pastor's family who is too prayed for. Um, the what goes on in the hearts and behind the walls of the pastor's home is is complex and it's complicated, and pastor's families carry a big burden. Um, and most of us love it, but it's also really hard, and so few things encourage me more than those text messages that I get from sweet people in our church just saying, hey, you came to mind today, I prayed for you, or hey, we prayed for your family today, or how can I pray for you? Those kinds of things. So that's something that everybody in the church can do.
Speaker 2:I heard a great quote that said if you want a better pastor, don't go looking for one. Pray for the one you have. So, but there's just a general sort of richness in that. The more contextual answer would be if you are in a position to be in relationship with a pastor's kid, you can do some of the same things that I said parents could do in terms of asking those questions of hey, do you ever feel like this? Does this ever happen? Have I ever participated in that Because what you're doing is basically just ripping off a layer of well things that are just covered up, that they've probably never expressed out loud, and so you're giving an opportunity for them to to be honest and then for you to be a trusted person to a deeper level where you can, you can be the person they now can probably be themselves with a bit more, and again, that's particular to maybe certain youth leaders or students, certain Sunday school teachers or certain friends. That's not everybody.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I'd say those two things for the church. Barnabas Piper, all the way from Nashville. I've been so enriched by our conversation and I suspect we could go on and on and on, but I must return you to your family. Thank you so much for spending the time with us. It's been a real joy to connect with you.
Speaker 2:It's been an honor. Thank you so much for the research and the way you're serving pastors' families. I hope this is an encouragement to people. It's been a joy to do.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you liked what you heard and you think others should hear it too, don't forget to like, share and subscribe. Catch you later.
