Clergy Wellbeing Down Under
Welcome to the official first podcast of the Centre for Effective Serving, a research and consulting organisation focused on vocational wellbeing, burnout prevention, and training. In Season 1 we are focussing on Clergy Wellbeing Down Under. In Season 2 we looked at how ministry kids locally and on the mission field are doing.
In today's fast-paced and demanding world, support for those who serve by leadership is more crucial than ever. However, the pressures and challenges that come with leadership roles can often lead to burnout and exhaustion, both mentally and physically. At the Centre for Effective Serving, we understand the significance of addressing these issues head-on to create a healthier and more productive leadership landscape.
In each episode we delve into the latest research and resources developed by our team of experts, who are dedicated to enhancing leadership wellbeing and fostering a supportive environment for leaders to thrive. Our podcast provides valuable insights, evidence-based strategies, and practical tips to help leaders and their families maintain their well-being, improve their resilience, and prevent burnout.
Join us as we bring on renowned experts in the fields of psychology, mental health, leadership, and well-being to share their knowledge and experiences. Through candid interviews and engaging discussions, we explore various topics, including stress management techniques, emotional intelligence, work-life integration, team building, and much more.
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Clergy Wellbeing Down Under
Episode 7: Navigating Parenting in Ministry Part 2 with Collett Smart
In this conversation, Collett Smart discuss the challenges and nuances of parenting in ministry, particularly focusing on the unique struggles faced by ministry kids. We explore themes of faith, identity, the importance of open communication, and the need for space and privacy for children. The discussion looks at the significance of relationships, understanding, and grace in navigating the complexities of raising children in a ministry context.
Get the full report of our survey findings here
Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
Hey there, I'm Valerie Ling and I'm a clinical psychologist and I will be your host for Season 2's episodes titled the Ministry Kids' Well-Being Down Under Episodes. We asked 100 ministry kids how they are doing. These are Australian kids who are either serving with their family locally or serving abroad on the field. If you haven't already done so, I recommend catching up on episode one, where I share the main findings from our survey. Every episode I'll talk to someone whom I hope will be able to help us understand and unpack what the kids told us. I hope you enjoy it. Let's do it. The other thing I don't know whether you saw this, but particularly for ministry kids, and it did come out in our survey is what to do when you're so, as a parent, wanting to make sure that they don't stray from God. Right Like their biblical knowledge is right, their knowledge of God and their knowledge of what is sin and things like that.
Speaker 1:We feel so responsible as parents when you're in ministry because you're ministering to the church, but then if your kids are going sort of haywire, you know that's a really uncomfortable space to be in. And yet I think when we see kids in our rooms let's say the older ones, you know sort of from about 15 onwards, they're actually really dealing with their own struggles, sexual identity, thoughts about. You know whether they agree. Yes, the theology that's been taught, and you know in this generation, colette, I'm sure you know what I mean when their peers are saying be more tolerant, be more open-minded. That's not cool. They have to hold this tension. How can parents journey with their kids through this, especially when they themselves are in ministry?
Speaker 2:That's where I just think the whole non-judgmental aspect that we spoke about before really comes into play. And it can be so hard because you as a parent are called and have been called to this ministry. But your children also have their own path and I often see kids who are brought up in the church who I'm so glad you spoke about the older age group, because that's when it often comes out. It's around 15 and older, some it's more, as they're hitting HSC year 12 and that young adult time where they really they've tried to do everything that their parents have wanted them to do or their churches wanted them to do and kept some of what they believe or think in check in a sense. And suddenly they go to university or they go somewhere else and they feel like for the first time they can actually talk it out and they will really be trying to figure out what do I actually believe? Which bits here am I just doing, because my parents have always told me that's what I should believe and which bits is really my own faith? And some young people will stray for a while. They will. I've spoken with pastors and people who are missionaries and they have had kids who have strayed and it can be incredibly painful.
Speaker 2:But I think as parents we have to trust that God has got our kids and he called you into this ministry and your children were part of of that and trust that they are on their own journey. And then that is where we have to give our children the opportunities to debate with us, particularly our much older teens and our young adult kids, to be able to sit with you and debate with that. I mean, it can get heated. Our families we love loudly and we debate loudly and so our debates are pretty heated, but it's done kindly. But giving our young adult kids the opportunities to challenge you should be secure enough in your faith that your children can challenge you in the big topics, and if you're not, then you need to go and process that with someone else.
Speaker 2:But it's really not our kids. Well, no one has ever been one back to Christ or one into the kingdom, to use Christian terms, by browbeating them or giving them the best arguments. They are won back by love and kindness and relationship and I think the biggest thing is continuing to lean in and just keep that relationship with our kids. Above everything is the most important thing the relationship, relationship, relationship. That is what is going to matter, not your fancy arguments with your child.
Speaker 1:And actually I think in the Christian circles, particularly in Sydney I can't speak about anywhere else I think there's a culture that we've got to defend against post-modernistic ideas or sort of ideological things, and so we want to very quickly come to a position of certainty.
Speaker 1:But actually children in this age sort of you know, adolescence is kind of coming in a little bit earlier. The ambivalence is brilliant. The longer they stay questioning, exploring, you know, it's great for them to develop their own sense of identity. But I think what we can do as Christian parents, in particular ministry parents, is we quickly want to shut those conversations down because we're afraid they're going astray. But where else can they go to talk about that? They're not going to be able to go to their youth leader because like that could be costly for the parent's ministry job. Yes, they can't go to their peers. So if the parent relationship can actually provide that space to explore and I think the other thing I was thinking about is giving permission and being really intentional that it can be hard for the kids to talk to their parents but finding other adults in their world it doesn't necessarily have to be in the church because that could be hard for the kid- yes.
Speaker 1:Finding other adults and relatives or people that your kids can speak to. That might be a helpful resource as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, and I think I mean my husband is fantastic at this, I have to say where he has said to our kids nothing is off limits. You know what we believe and you know you've been in a church since you were born. But nothing you ask me is off limits. Come and ask me and and if I don't know, I'm going to go and work, wrestle with it and find stuff and then we can talk about it again. And sometimes it's actually challenged, my husband and I, for things we've thought, we've believed for decades and we've kind of just done it because that's what, or spouted that because that's what we've always said or what we were taught when we were 15. And suddenly we're going hang on, why am I saying those things? Am I just saying it because I've always said it, or is there really a basis for why I'm saying these things? And I think particularly issues around. We've seen in the church domestic and family violence or you know, and how that might have been addressed in some churches. We've seen it in Christian media, you know, women being told to just go back to their abusive husband and love them. And we now know, good grief, that like what kind of advice was that that was nothing like Jesus would have done. And so, and particularly things around dress and dress code, those can those seem so loaded in the church and some of those things we've got to just think about. Why am I answering the way I'm answering and then coming back to what you were talking about having other people?
Speaker 2:We need to also remember our children need to have space to process, possibly away from the church or church events. I don't think there's any other job like ministry where children are involved and attend all mum and dad's work meetings, midweek meetings, weekend meetings. They know Sorry, they know all their colleagues. They're involved with all their parents' colleagues. When your parents don't work in the church, your life isn't like that. You aren't involved in every aspect of your parents' job and all their colleagues.
Speaker 2:And so our children do need to have space sometimes to process away from the church, particularly some of our introverted children. They might find all that socializing exhausting and so perhaps also asking what do you need and how are you going with what's going on, you know, in our church, in our community. Do you need other communities outside of our church? That's healthy for you, and perhaps as a family, have a quarterly or six monthly check-in meeting to see how everyone's tracking. Because your child might say oh yeah, I'm totally fine at 10 years old, but at 13 or 16, they might think something differently, so they won't. Well, they probably will think something differently and they might need something different at that age. So, yep, giving them permission at 16 because they didn't need that at 10, but at 16 they needed to maybe even for a time attend a completely different church.
Speaker 1:Actually, we're very happily straying into the things that I wanted to ask you. Okay, something that I did want to ask you your thoughts about is the kids did talk about needing space, privacy, sometimes just wanting to be alone. Now, that might be a function of being maybe a part of a busy ministry home, but it might also be something that, in general, kids really just want to have. What are your thoughts about what the kids were saying about that?
Speaker 2:So I think that is particularly your teen years that is quite common and particularly your introverted kids. They need some downtime, they need space when they come home from school, when they come home from church or youth. Some of your introverts it doesn't mean they don't love people, they might still really enjoy being around people, but they can get very drained when they have spent time with people. I'm actually an introvert and so it doesn't mean you're shy, it just means once you've been around big groups of people and you've socialized a lot, you need some downtime just to get your energy back. Your extroverted kids get their energy from people. But even your extroverted children sometimes will need a bit of space, just having quiet time on their own. I also have to just say there you know, for some of our kids they might want to be in their rooms and that's perfectly okay.
Speaker 2:If your children are young or they're in their teen years at school, please don't have technology in bedrooms. That is the rule 101 for technology no technology in bedrooms, and particularly at night. But I've always had this rule with my children no technology in bedrooms. So if they are having technology they might have their own little space in the house. Or you know one of the areas of the lounge or whatever where they can just have some space with headphones on and you say to them look, I won't interrupt you for 30 minutes or an hour or whatever you come to in an agreement. They might say I'm really exhausted.
Speaker 2:When I come home from church on a Sunday, I feel like we've had people all day. And you say to them well, what do you need? Well, I just want to sit with my headphones on and play a game or listen to music. And then you say, all right, well, you can't be in your room with your technology then, but I won't disturb you If you want to just go sit on the deck outside or you want to sit on the corner of the couch.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to ask you to come and do chores or interrupt you. You just go do what you need to do, giving them that permission. Some kids like to nap and they might want to go have a nap. That's not lazy. A lot of their brains are growing and processing stuff and so some kids need to nap for all that body and brain change happening. But yeah, it's giving them permission for what works, for them to have time away from you for a little while time away from peopling for a while. That's perfectly okay and that is something normal to teens, not just kids in ministry.
Speaker 1:I agree. So I think our kids helped us to understand because you know, very often when you're in ministry you're not actually having the housing budget freedom that other people have and kids can be in sharing rooms, small rooms, and there's never, ever space. And the thing is that we did a lot as parents is, you know, because there's always ministry activity, you want to tidy up the house quickly or, you know, can I get a hand here? So you know you interrupt the kids' flow and we basically had to figure out a signal. It's called Dayot, do your own thing. And I laughed because my 21 year old, when I sent him a message asking him, hey, what are you up to? And he said Dayot, do your own thing time.
Speaker 2:Brilliant, oh gosh, I love that.
Speaker 1:But it was very often after church. We just bring the whole rhythm of the house. It was a do-your-own-thing. You know there wouldn't be any punishment or judgment if you were on devices and we just respected, you know, for that particular hour, and parents wouldn't get interrupted as well. I think it's helpful. I remember Colette seeing one ministry kid who didn't know what was the issue for them. They just felt teary and angry and anxious and they were just cycling through these emotions and when we finally looked at it we actually realized that they were unable to get access to their primary chill-out thing music because there was no space. You know it was in a shared room. You know they didn't have time in between all the activities to have that really lovely time for themselves and all we had to do with the family was to practically problem solve how to get that particular instrument to another space.
Speaker 1:Wow, you know, um, I think we forget that kids in ministry homes.
Speaker 2:They really don't know what the alternatives options are at times available to them, as well, I love that you brought up. You know know the range of emotions there teary, angry. When our kids are acting out, there's usually something going on, you know. I mean we all have bad days and sometimes we're harder on our kids than we are on ourselves as adults. In the sense, what I'm trying to say is when we've had a big day, we'll say Hence, what I'm trying to say is when we've had a big day, we'll say, okay, I'm just exhausted now, I just need to be left. And you know, give me some space. Or we will snap out and then say, well, sorry, I didn't mean to snap, but I had a bad day.
Speaker 2:But then we very harden our children when they might back, chat or snap out at us or their sibling, and we actually don't realize that there's something that's gone on for them before. And we need to have grace. I'm not saying we let our children speak to us however they like, that's not what I'm saying, but we need to still have grace with our kids. And then also, when we see patterns in behavior, what's going on? And often it's the anger and the irritability that isn't just a child being a bad kid, they're actually struggling underneath with something and that is where we get going to working out how can we problem solve and see what's going on for them. And so for that child you've just spoken about was they just weren't getting time to do something. That was something they just loved doing. That also helped to relax them.
Speaker 1:Yes, so yeah yes, yes, and I think even in those moments, right, colette, when emotions are high and you're seeing it in your child, I think for us as parents I can speak that as a, as a ministry parent you're always, always remembering those scripture which says if you can't manage your own household. You know and I think we interpret that in a way that's really not meant to give that meaning that you know you're anxious, particularly as a mom. I remember sitting in churches in the early years before I finished my psychology degree, you know, just feeling like, oh my gosh, you know I need to be able to better manage my children. But sort of by the end, because I had to do my degree part-time, you know, by the end and I'd done some child and adolescent placements and things like that I realized that there was no pausing their development as children while we were in ministry. They were just going to be kids. I had to deal with my own issues.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, it's often us as parents holding on to this idea that we have to have these perfect children. And it comes often. I was talking to a psychologist friend yesterday and it's whether you're a psychologist or someone in ministry or you're a school teacher. Sometimes you can carry that thinking well, I should have it all together because you know I should have the answers. Your children are human and we will use the tools that we've been given to help support our children. But we don't have perfect children and we are not perfect parents and we never will be, and giving ourselves permission and our children permission to just still be human. And it is that fear of judgment, fear of people looking at us saying well, you're the pastor's wife, you know, surely you should have your children all together, following the Lord, praying three times a day or whatever, and you don't because you've got different personalities in your house and you're loving the children that God's given you and that's your role not to grow these perfect little robot children in the church.
Speaker 1:And you're figuring things out yourself. I remember going to a ministry wives gathering and I'd just written a dissertation about how it's a dissertation, right? So case studies. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it, but they were saying that, in their analysis, by the time ministry wives are in their 50s, they get it. They get it. It's like, oh okay, you know, I'm allowed to be imperfect and I don't have to please everybody, but by that stage, your kids have already told you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely right. Your kids have grown up and mostly gone and you're like, oh dear, I wish I'd known this 20 years ago. Yeah, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1:So I think it's like if we have our grace and compassion for ourselves as well, you know it does help. Final question I have for you, colette the last episode we had an adult ministry kid talk about how, you know, the children don't really get a choice in being in ministry, and he was saying it's really helpful if parents can get buy-in for their kids. And I was curious what you thought, because it's not helpful if parents can get buy-in for their kids. And I was curious what you thought, because it's not an easy thing to do. It's, on one hand, you want to do that, but then there's a fear that, oh. But if I ask the kids hey, do you know, do you want to go to kenya or um, would you like to move schools? Because we've got this great ministry opportunity on the other side of australia? There's like if they say no, no, I don't want to, which is more than likely, then you're stuck. How do we manage these sorts of situations, do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is tricky because it would be similar to you know a businessman or businesswoman getting a job in Singapore and the whole family has to move across and you don't really have the option of saying to your child, well, would you like to go? Because if you don't go you're actually going to be out of work. And then what do you do? You can't pay for rent or food and so on. So some of those decisions are really tricky. But I think it's important to involve the kids in the whole process, so giving them some form of control in certain parts of the planning, saying you know, this is the opportunity we've been given. I know that you don't feel like God has called you to go across to Western Australia or Singapore, wherever it is, but we feel that this is where God has led our family. But what could be helpful for you in making this easier for you and start to begin to brainstorm different things that could be helpful for them, whether it's certain things they take across or things that they might think about when they go there, that they're afraid of. They might not even think ahead of things that would be a little bit difficult for them as a parent. You might preempt that and say well, we know you're going to have to move schools. What would be helpful for you when you move to the new school? Would it be helpful if we visited there beforehand, gave you a week to settle in first before you jumped straight into schools?
Speaker 2:I think, whether it's this or mental health difficulties, or what your children are going to do when they come home from church, I think all of these are really important conversations. It's about you know, long are those days of children should be seen and not heard, and children should be sitting silently in the church pew at the end of the pew and not making a peep the whole time. I think we realize that children have dignity, that Jesus loved children and they were treated with dignity and with autonomy, and so there are certain roles that parents take and choices parents take because they are the adults and we are given the role of caring for and loving and looking after our children, and that includes some decisions. But then in other decisions you know whether it's what we said before about when our children come back from church have these discussions beforehand, because in the heat of the moment it's very difficult to be creative and emotions are high and that's difficult to come up with creative ideas and everyone else everyone to feel like they can now settle down or have ideas for what they might do.
Speaker 2:We talked beforehand. What would your safe space look like? What activities do you think you might enjoy? What are people you might like to stay in contact with or be in contact with? What are your sleeping, eating, exercise? Those three are pretty important. What could we do to make sure that those are regular and healthy and it's not working those out in the heat of the moment?
Speaker 2:It's talking about that before and then, when things come up, say, right, what was our plan? What of those activities could you do now that would help you and support you while you're struggling with the relocation, or you're struggling with your mental health today, or you're struggling with feeling overwhelmed from being home from church? What were those things we discussed? They could be on the back of your child's bedroom door, for that matter, that they go and look at an activity and pick it, and then also again going back to giving them opportunities to just feel heard and say to them do you want, when you talk to me today, do you want me to brainstorm some ideas for you with you, or are you just wanting to vent? Which one do you want from me and I'm happy to sit here and help or I'm happy here to just sit here and listen and give them some kind of autonomy in some of the choices that they're making? I think that's important.
Speaker 1:Gosh, there's the therapist in you, colette. That was amazing, because, I mean, that's the brunt of what we do in therapy is we affirm the individual, we validate what they feel and we actually give autonomy and choice. There's all these things that you've brought out. Which direction shall we go? And you know, and what's the one thing that you really need from this session today, before, and you know, I think that's that's what, um, you know, it's not just about us adults, um, who respond to that. You know, it goes all the way down to the little kitties yes when, when you do that with them, isn't it?
Speaker 1:So let's wrap up, colette. So if there was one thing you could say to a kid who might be listening to us a ministry kid you know what would be one thing you'd want them to hear.
Speaker 2:I would say if you're struggling with your church or your community, your church community or even your youth leaders, or even your own faith, right now, keep looking at Jesus, look at who he is, look at how he treated others, how he loved, and I think that is where you will find what you truly believe.
Speaker 1:And if there was a parent who really wants to do the best by their kids, what might you say to them?
Speaker 2:I would say to parents be comfortable in the silence. It's okay not to have all the answers. And when your children push away from you because they will at times and teenagers sometimes a lot don't stop leaning in. You might say let's come back to this in a few days, or I see you don't want to talk right now, but I'm here, I'm going to keep asking you, I'm going to keep checking in on you and then keep doing that. And when they tell you that you're weird or you cringe like my kids have all done, you that you're weird or you cringe, like my kids have all done, my answer has always been, yeah, I'm a bit weird, would I really be your mum if I wasn't a bit weird.
Speaker 1:Yes, actually, colette, I used to do this, but I went one step further. I said to them listen, when you're at church and you feel like everybody's looking at you because you're weird, there's a higher likelihood they're looking at you because you're weird. There's a higher likelihood they're looking at me because I do my best to be the weirder one. And finally, you know, what can we say to our faith communities, our churches or our organizations that are caring for kids in ministry? Yeah, and you know and really admire them as well because, like you said I love how you said they have a lot on their little shoulders. Just admiring, I think, that they still show up. They still turn up and still try to do their very best, even when you know, like you said, some of the things that we may be observing makes us feel uncomfortable. But the kid is there, they're still trying.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much, colette, for spending time with me today. It's been a fascinating, insightful and empowering conversation as well. Thank you, colette. Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you liked what you heard and you think others should hear it too, don't forget to like, share and subscribe. Catch you later.
