Clergy Wellbeing Down Under
Welcome to the official first podcast of the Centre for Effective Serving, a research and consulting organisation focused on vocational wellbeing, burnout prevention, and training. In Season 1 we are focussing on Clergy Wellbeing Down Under. In Season 2 we looked at how ministry kids locally and on the mission field are doing.
In today's fast-paced and demanding world, support for those who serve by leadership is more crucial than ever. However, the pressures and challenges that come with leadership roles can often lead to burnout and exhaustion, both mentally and physically. At the Centre for Effective Serving, we understand the significance of addressing these issues head-on to create a healthier and more productive leadership landscape.
In each episode we delve into the latest research and resources developed by our team of experts, who are dedicated to enhancing leadership wellbeing and fostering a supportive environment for leaders to thrive. Our podcast provides valuable insights, evidence-based strategies, and practical tips to help leaders and their families maintain their well-being, improve their resilience, and prevent burnout.
Join us as we bring on renowned experts in the fields of psychology, mental health, leadership, and well-being to share their knowledge and experiences. Through candid interviews and engaging discussions, we explore various topics, including stress management techniques, emotional intelligence, work-life integration, team building, and much more.
Stay up-to-date with the latest trends in leadership well-being and burnout prevention by subscribing today.
Clergy Wellbeing Down Under
Episode 6: Navigating Parenting in Ministry Part 1 with Collett Smart
In this conversation, I speak with Collett Smart - psychologist, author and speaker in child and adoelscent mental health. Collett hosts the Raising Teens Podcast and is the author of "They'll be okay. 15 Conversations To Help Your Child Through troubled Times "
We delve into the complexities of adolescent mental health, particularly within the context of ministry families. We discuss the importance of understanding the adolescent brain, the impact of technology on mental health, and how parents can connect with their children. The conversation looks at ways we can share empathy, effective communication, and parenting support for the challenges faced by ministry kids. Collett shares insights on how parents can support their children through their mental health struggles while navigating their faith journey. The discussion also touches on the importance of creating space for individual needs and the dynamics of family decisions in ministry.
To download our full results head here
Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
Hey there, I'm Valerie Ling and I'm a clinical psychologist and I will be your host for Season 2's episodes, which are all about the ministry kids' well-being down under. We asked 100 kids how they were doing and they gave us their answers. These are kids who are either serving with their families locally or overseas on the field. In this episode you'll hear the main findings from the survey that we conducted. After that, each episode I'll be talking to someone who I think can help us to understand and unpack what the kids told us. Let's do it. I have with me a highly esteemed colleague and I've been told by my family and my colleagues that I have very high professional standards and I have no problem saying that for Colette Smart, who is with me. I have a high regard for her work, so welcome, colette.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Valerie. What a lovely introduction.
Speaker 1:Colette, you are no newbie to the raising kids scene. You have a Raising Teens podcast. You've written the book They'll Be Okay 15 Conversations to Help your Child Through Troubled Times. You're a frequent media expert in this space and you've also recently completed another postgraduate degree in a Master's of Child and Adolescent Mental Health. First thing I'd love to find out why are you so interested in this space?
Speaker 2:Because I always say once a teacher, always a teacher. So my first degree was actually in teaching and I taught primary and I taught high school. But while I was studying teaching, I did some subjects in psychology, fell in love with psychology, so started teaching and continued to study and then finished my degree in psychology and so I think I keep gravitating back towards schools. I've worked as a school psychologist and I just love particularly teenagers. I loved teaching teenagers. I loved my high school teaching years and then whenever I work as a school psychologist, I'm usually across the middle school and senior school kind of years, so that tween teen years. I love the way young people think.
Speaker 2:I think I've felt like you know, young people often get a bad rap and there's so much we now know Valerie, you know this Since I even first started my teaching degree and my early psychology degree the stuff we know about the adolescent brain and it's just exploded, so we understand them a lot more and so I just I'm a bit of a research nerd. So that's why I went back and studied again and specialized in children and adolescents. I just love to know what's current so that what I'm recommending is actually something that's helpful. And yesterday I was actually at my eldest son's graduation and the dean said Something like it's 17 years before research actually hits clinical practice and I thought what? Some of the research is brilliant and then by the time we're putting it into clinical practice, there's new stuff. So that's always been my heart, my heart behind my podcast. I know that's your heart getting best practice into the hands of people now that they can use it. So that is my long explanation of how and why I got into this.
Speaker 1:Well, I think I just had a racing heart just then. I feel like, yes, I totally, totally resonate with this. So, kalant, I love that you centered around the brain because recently, when I've been speaking to Christian communities, I love that you centred around the brain because recently, when I've been speaking to Christian communities, I've really been talking about the brain. I think psychology in Christian settings is misunderstood as being a philosophy, as being a worldview, but we're really as health science, yes, and so much of what we know now is really grounded in research and science and the brain. I'd love to know for you, like you, both you and I probably came out to practice probably at the same time, many decades ago.
Speaker 1:In most recent times. What has been the biggest discovery or moment in what you've seen about the brain that you go? Oh, this makes so much sense.
Speaker 2:I think everything, particularly around anxiety and mental health. You know, mental health isn't a weakness, it's not a sin, it's not Let me say that again. I don't want to say mental health, sorry, valerie, let me say that again. I don't want to say mental health, sorry, valerie, let me say that again. Um uh, mental ill health isn't a weakness, it's not a sin, it's not something you're doing wrong.
Speaker 2:I often say to parents just because your child struggles with their mental health, doesn't mean they're not resilient. Some of the most resilient kids I know are kids who struggle with their mental health, and so for me, knowing that so much of what's going on in our brain can also be what's driving our mental health, but also, you know, whether it's mental ill health or mental wellness, there are things we can do to train our brains and help our brains. Even though you may end up with a lifelong mental health condition, it doesn't mean that your life is over. It's not worth living. You can live a very full life because there are so many strategies we can use to teach our brains how to function and how to cope well despite our mental health struggles.
Speaker 1:Most of our respondents were in the 10 to 14 age bracket. What's happening in their brains? Because I reckon it's not just that they're ministry kids, but there's something just about being kids in that age. What's happening for them, Colette?
Speaker 2:So I love how we know some of your listeners will be quite aware, because it's kind of everywhere now that the prefrontal cortex, the front part of your brain, is the last part to develop. It's only fully developed in your mid-20s. So it doesn't mean our children are dumb or stupid, it just means their brains are still growing and developing. But we also know that there's this massive pruning time that happens around those years where the parts of your brain that you're not using you lose. Now that's not a bad thing, because we can't possibly get really good at something or focus on something if we still have a brain that is the same as a five-year-old, that has all these pathways for every kind of possibility. At some point our brains have to begin to focus and develop almost like superhighways. The more you use something, the more deeply the ruts, as Martha Beck puts it, that you get deeper and deeper ruts in that area. And that can be fantastic, because the more you practice your guitar or the more you work on maths or the more you work on your peer relationships, the better you become at that. And that is also where we work on helping young people who are struggling with anxiety, giving them lots of tools in those early years. They become better at using those with their mental health and some of them are going to be better at handling their mental health struggles than a lot of us are, because we didn't put those habits in place when our brains were rewiring.
Speaker 2:And so some parts of your brain you'll lose. And that's okay, because a tiny little tot is able to learn or pick up any language. Because they're born into a family. They hear certain sounds. The more they hear them, the more they use them, the more that part of their brain forms a language. That is why I still have a South African accent.
Speaker 2:I've lived in Australia for 20 years but I still have an accent because my brain has such ruts in the way that I speak or pronounce words because I grew up as a teenager in South Africa. That's just an example of how my brain forms certain things. And so there's wonderful aspects to your teen losing aspects or not aspects, losing the connections in their brain in the teen years because they are specializing in certain areas. But then if our teens spend hours and hours on TikTok, that is also the area of their brain that is kind of being strengthened yeah, for lack of a better word and that's not really the part of the brain we want to be the most strengthened. We want our teens to be strengthened in healthy habits and healthy areas of their lives.
Speaker 1:Now we could go down a rabbit hole, because I think there's two things that you said that we hear in the practice when parents bring their kids in. Number one is do I then create a whole bunch of rules and restrictions around digital use? I'll just get your quick thought from that.
Speaker 2:So that's such a good point because also, the other rabbit hole quickly, as I thought you were going to ask me do we set up all these activities for our kids? Because sometimes we can get so panicked. Oh, my child's brain's developing. I now need to enroll them in guitar and cricket and violin and extra maths tutoring and we can overwhelm our poor children. But also, yes, there is a place for boundaries around technology. But we also need to understand that our children are also in a time that is very reliant in technology. That's not going away.
Speaker 2:So it's that real balance between trying to help them live in the world they're in and connect with their peers, sometimes online. But, as you would know, valerie, there's this big push at the moment, even in our government, on trying to delay the age of social media use till around 16. Now, that's not me saying if your child is 15 and they've got social media, you go and confiscate their phones and everything today. Please be very careful about how you do that. But that could be if we've got listeners whose children are 10 and their children haven't been handed over a phone yet or social media. We often talk about delay as long as possible, but also just being aware that our children do need some form of connection with their peers, and so parents might talk to other experts, read up on what could they start their child on that could help them be connected, but not give them everything at once, still within healthy boundaries.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you were right, that was what you started with.
Speaker 1:That was the second thing I was going to say Tools and strategies and activities to get the brain boosted. Many ministry families just don't have the money. I'll start with money first and then we'll go into time, because I think that'll bring us to the meat of what I wanted to chat with you about. But you know, is that what it is Like we're going to have to find? I think you know. Send them to psychologists to learn tools and tricks for anxiety. What are your thoughts there?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I do think if you can and you feel that your child is struggling with their mental health depends on your church. Some churches will have funding that will go towards that. Some churches don't and unfortunately, valerie, we still do have some churches who try and just pray their anxiety away and hope that prayer is a magic wand. And I'm not saying we don't pray. Of course we pray. I've grown up in the church. I've worked in Christian schools. I still attend church. Prayer is the very foundation of my faith.
Speaker 2:But we also need to understand that you know, if our child had diabetes or they had a heart condition, we wouldn't just pray the diabetes away and hope that that all goes away, or they have anaphylaxis, for that matter, you would send them out with an EpiPen, even if you're a Christian parent. So, because we know about the science about anxiety and depression more and more, our young people also need specialists who can give them the tools, like an EpiPen or whatever it is, for their physical ailments. We do need to support them in their mental health and there are a lot of really good free online resources, whether it's Youth Beyond Blue, the Black Dog Institute there are a lot of excellent resources out there to support young people. There are even apps that some young people will engage with more because it's something online and it kind of speaks their language.
Speaker 1:I agree with you Kids Helpline as well. I think, yes, as parents, if we can tolerate our discomfort and feelings of failure as parents and being able to say to our kids you know, it's going to be normal for you to feel some hard things, and if ever it's too hard to speak to me or your friends or to your teacher, I totally will support you calling one of these helplines or these chats. It's actually an amazing resource that we have in australia.
Speaker 2:Yes, go ahead and you just mentioned their calling and chatting, because for a lot of our children and young people, they just want to be heard. They just want someone else to hear them and they often start off when I see young people. They don't want to worry mum and dad. They're worried not just that mum and dad will freak out, they're worried about worrying their parents. So we need to give them permission. I love how you said tell them that they can call these, because sometimes they feel bad that they might even think that's an option. If you give them permission, that gives them the opportunity to say all right, there isn't a stigma around this in my home and I can call Kids Helpline if I want to talk.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Now. You're a very seasoned professional in the Christian scene. You've worked in a Christian school. You're currently working in a Christian tertiary education institution a tertiary education institution. Are there any differences to the way that we view kids' mental health, emotional awareness in the Christian community to the general? Do you think there are any differences?
Speaker 2:Look, I think there has been for some time. I do think there has been that difficulty with thinking that mental health or mental illness, mental health struggles, is something Christians shouldn't have, and you know that we often hear those scriptures on fear quoted. You know, or don't be anxious about anything. That doesn't mean that if you are anxious, that you're now sinning or that anxiety is wrong. Anxiety is actually something our brain has given us to keep us alive. It's that fight or flight and sometimes we need to help our children to understand that their brain might be triggering something as a life or death situation where it's not.
Speaker 2:We always talk about our ancestors who used to.
Speaker 2:When they saw a leopard, they knew they had to stand and fight or run as fast as they could, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Our children might, their brains don't see the difference between their exam that they're afraid of and how our ancestors processed a leopard approaching. We need to just give them tools and so, yeah, I have seen a difference in how the church communities have approached that, that children and young people have felt guilty about their anxiety and then they don't reach out for help. But I do think a lot of Christian schools, the leadership, a lot of higher education institutions really recognize the science behind it and are really working hard at helping upskill parents in how to support their children. Of the courses I teach, I teach the brain in. I work across both Christian and secular for you know for lack of a better word tertiary institutions, and I actually teach the same thing on the brain. I don't teach anything different on how to help young people with anxiety, depression, mental health issues, teenage development and all that. We still teach the same thing because we base it on what the science says, that we know.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, let's jump into your reflections on the survey. What did you hear just from your own initial impressions? What really jumped out for you? These are ministry kids, both on the field and locally, predominantly 10 to 14 years old. What stood out for you?
Speaker 2:I love that. A lot of them are doing well, so the bigger percentage are doing well. Some of the statistics on their struggling with their mental health is really similar to all kids that I know, so that's important for us to know. I think that when we walk into the church we will see a similar percentage of children and young people struggling with mental health as they are in a local school. But I also love that so many of them want to talk to their parents. That just speaks to the research. They want to engage with their parents, and there's this myth that when our kids hit tween teen years that they no longer want their parents' opinions or their parents around. That's not true. They really still want their parents to lean in, and I saw that in the survey. I saw a lot of them saying I want my parents to listen, I want to feel heard, and then one of the things that stood out is I wish my parents would spend more time with me. So those are kind of the themes that really stood out for me.
Speaker 1:Now in being a ministry kid. Let's just focus on those requests and see if we can help parents to get a practical view of how to do this, how to listen and you know the kids, I think we're saying we really need them to just listen and understand. You know, probably not give us a solution or not evaluate if the emotion is good or bad, but so I've got this question here what practical things can parents do to have listening without jumping to quickly want to solve it? What do you reckon?
Speaker 2:Oh, valerie, isn't that the thing I mean? I'm a parent of a 24-year-old a 22-year-old and a 16-year-old, and my biggest struggle as a mom has been trying to not solve for my children. Yes, I'm a psychologist and I know that we shouldn't jump in and solve, and I will be honest, that has been my biggest wrestle. I'm always working on my own response, and I think that's natural for parents, because you love your children. So you want to jump in, you want to fix, you want to help and you want the problem to go away so that they can feel better and happier. And that is often the last way we should respond, and so I'm always working on it. And so it's that learning to listen well, so it's being curious about what is going on for them, and that empathic listening and the non-judgment. So teens really want our time. So how do we listen empathically? We make sure that we are not on our phones scrolling when they come in and talk with us. It's so interesting because teens will often not be ready to talk when we want to talk and then they are ready to talk, often at five to midnight, five minutes to midnight, or at as we're about to do something or we feel like we're doing something important. Now I'm not saying we have to drop what we're doing every single time you might be involved in something that just can't be put down for that minute but communicate that Say I'm so sorry, I've just got a call about to come in. Can you just give me five minutes or ten minutes and I will come back to you and they may not be ready to talk. Then you know that's usually the case and when we talk to them we say look, I know you wanted to talk to me as soon as you're ready. I'm going to make sure that the next time you come to me I will be ready. So it's trying to find those times. We are giving them the sense that we are present. We're not scrolling through our own phones. We're switching off the television or our show or if that's what we're doing on our phones or our devices, giving them eye contact. Our body language must show that we are open and present.
Speaker 2:I say eye contact but I will always have a caveat because there will be some kids on the spectrum or some young people, particularly teens, often teen boys not always, but often teen boys who eye contact doesn't work. They feel as though they're being interrogated when there's eye contact and they might feel very uncomfortable. So we often do something when we are side by side and we talk, whether it's cooking and talking, walking and talking sitting next to them on the couch, sitting in the car, side by side, where there isn't that eyeball to eyeball contact, is often the best way to have conversations. Conversations, then, often repeating back what they say. So and not in the. It can sound very contrived and strange when we first try it out, but it's kind of. They might say I felt so angry with Sam today in the way that he treated me. We would say something like okay, so it sounds like you felt really angry with how Sam responded to you. So kind of change their words a little bit and they will feel as though you've heard them because you were responding with what they've said. It's something we use in counseling.
Speaker 2:Also, not interrogating them.
Speaker 2:If they tell you something that their friends have said and you feel like you want to freak out a little bit about what their friend has said, be careful not to interrogate because they will shut down.
Speaker 2:They will shut the conversation down because they are again afraid you're going to pepper them with questions or you are going to freak out and then also validate, say things like, wow, that sounds really hard for you or that sounds so difficult right now, that sounds like a tricky situation.
Speaker 2:And be careful with our judgment, because our kids in the church or in ministry they know what you believe, they know what your church believes, and that is often their biggest fear is that you are going to judge them when they come with something that they know is not really something that your family holds to or their church holds to, and so they won't talk to you. They won't open up again if your first response is judgment. And so even when you feel something or you believe something different, they know that something or you believe something different. They know that. So say, yeah, I'm open to what you have to say. You know that I might think something different, that doesn't matter. I really want to know what you're thinking and what you believe and let me listen to you. That's what they need from us.
Speaker 1:I love that you landed there. I think we will actually make this a two-part episode and we'll pick it up in the second episode. I just want to come back to the first part that you were saying, I think, empathy. You know that, as a psychologist, 70% of what we do in the room is not fixing. Yes, all we're doing is helping someone to see the picture clearer for themselves and to access some of the things that they already have within them to know what the next steps are right. So to me, almost as a parent because I have the same issue, right, it's always. Am I seeing the same picture as my child, whether whether they're 5, 10, 15, 20, 26? Because if they feel like they're the only one seeing that reality, that's what's lonely.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:When someone else can see the same picture that they're seeing empathically, then it's like I'm not the only one sharing this burden, right? So it's almost like I think, as I was hearing you, I often find that I have to remind myself to be a tourist in my kids' world. I love that, because at every stage they're encountering things in their life that's new for them, and I've got to update what they're going through. But I must remain the tourist, you know, not the rescuer or the lecturer, such that we get to the point where we can say those things, those validating things, oh, that makes so much sense. It sounds like this um, the feelings that you're having are this wow, and at that point there's a resting baseline of I'm now no longer by myself. Yeah, someone else gets it. Would you think so?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think that's what the magic is in counseling or therapy. It actually isn't magic in that sense. It's actually that very often when people come into a counseling space they are sitting with all this stuff in their head and your head can be so noisy and it can feel all scrambled up and sometimes you're just given permission and a space to talk it out and suddenly you kind of see it laid out in front of you and you begin to be able to put it in order and it sometimes becomes less overwhelming because you've actually said it out loud you get people to, or the person in front of you to ask you questions. So our role as a therapist would be to ask questions. That helps people think through what's going on for them, and you're so right that our role as a parent is that to let them have space to talk out the noise in their heads and it becomes more manageable. And you're absolutely right, they don't feel lonely anymore, they're not alone.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you liked what you heard and you think others should hear it too, don't forget to like, share and subscribe. Catch you later.
