Episode 5: Growing Up Between Continents and Churches with Marsden Sampson

Growing up in the unique world of ministry life can shapes a child's perspective in unique ways. Marsden Sampson knows this journey intimately, being both a pastor's kid and a missionary kid. He recounts his story of traversing cultural landscapes from Australia to Kenya and back, and how these transitions shaped his understanding of belonging, loneliness, and identity. Marsden's candid reflections illuminate the less-discussed emotional landscape faced by children in ministry settings.

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Podcast Disclaimer:

Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!

Chapters

• 0:01 Both a Pk and Mk
• 9:49 Older Kids' Challenges in Ministry
• 18:11 Missionary Kids' Challenges & Experiences
• 32:55 Gratitude

Transcript

Valerie Ling: 0:01

Hey there, I'm Valerie Ling and I'm a clinical psychologist and I will be your host for Season 2's episodes, which are all about the ministry kids' well-being down under. We asked 100 kids how they were doing and they gave us their answers. These are kids who are either serving with their families locally or overseas on the field. In this episode you'll hear the main findings from the survey that we conducted. After that, each episode I'll be talking to someone who I think can help us to understand and unpack what the kids told us. Let's do it. Hello everybody, thanks for joining me again. I've got a special guest. His name is Marsden Sampson. G'day Marsden. Thanks for having me Now. Marsden has the unique perspective of having been in parish ministry with his family, as well as cross-cultural ministry Correct, marsden.

Marsden Sampson: 0:59

Correct.

Valerie Ling: 1:00

Yeah, take us through that timeline. Tell us a little bit about what your experience like. When have you been in his parish mission? Tell us through that timeline. Tell us a little bit about what your experience like. When have you been in as parish mission? Tell us about that.

Marsden Sampson: 1:09

Yeah Well, I was actually born while mum and dad were at Bible College and then, from the ages of well day one until I was about 11, I was a pastor's kid, a minister's kid, at a couple of different churches. The last one was in Sylvania, where dad was the senior minister. And at about 10 or 11, mum and dad sat me down one night and said hey, got some news, we are going to be missionaries.

Valerie Ling: 1:41

Yeah.

Marsden Sampson: 1:42

And that then triggered a sequence of events that resulted in me jumping on a plane to go to Kenya about a year later, so it was a pretty quick turnaround.

Marsden Sampson: 1:52

Yeah yeah, turned 12 pretty shortly after arriving, so I think about a month into landing in Africa I turned 12, and I was there until I finished school, where I came back ahead of my family for uni. About six months later they finished up in Kenya and came back to Australia where Dad became a minister again at a couple of different churches, and I am no longer living at home but Dad is still in ministry. He now works for Bush Church Aid, bca. Yeah, still very much in full-time ministry.

Valerie Ling: 2:29

That's right. I mean you're all you've left the nest.

Marsden Sampson: 2:32

Absolutely. I'm growing up now.

Valerie Ling: 2:34

Yeah, marzen, I have this lovely memory of because you came and did an internship with us some years ago, yeah, and you were probably one of the adult, probably more. My experience with you at that point in time was a missions kid adult kids who was reflecting with me because your exposure to our practice and then you were, I think, reflecting on your experiences and it's really lovely to kind of come full circle now and go well, we've done the survey, now we get to hear, you know, a few years on, your reflections and I think it's pretty unique that you've had both perspectives. So my first question, marzen, is just what stood out for you when you looked at the results, like reflecting on what the kids said and what you experienced?

Marsden Sampson: 3:25

yeah, I think the the biggest thing that I'm sort of glad it picked up on was and obviously these go hand in hand but the, the loneliness and then the depression slash anxiety. Um, because I think that has sort of probably been the biggest negative takeaway I've had from.

Marsden Sampson: 3:45

I'd say largely being a missionary kid, and a large part of that is both the culture shock and the reverse culture shock of coming home. So when I first moved back to Australia at 18, I went through this crazy period of I landed on the Sunday and started uni on the Tuesday. I was living with cousins but living out of home essentially for the first time, living in a new area of Sydney that I hadn't lived in and having to figure out a whole bunch of things by myself. I've often explained it as I was an 18-year-old, but I was an 11-year-old Australian. So that sort of was my level of knowledge and understanding of the city that I was living in. In some ways it felt familiar. In other ways I had no idea where I was going and what I was doing. So, yeah, that was a tough time and that then led to a reasonably significant period of feeling pretty isolated and lonely and definitely at points, feeling pretty depressed.

Marsden Sampson: 4:54

In my first 24 months back in Australia I lived in four different homes Wow. So that was yeah, that was pretty challenging. That was a combination of living with my cousins and then a CMS-provided house and then a different house and then, obviously, dad being a minister. Houses come with the job. So, yeah, that was a pretty unstable time for me, which definitely led to periods of like I felt lonely and felt disconnected, tied in with the fact that I didn't I didn't particularly love uni and that sort of structure going from a high school of um 25 people per grade to the big bad world of uni was a crazy transition. Um, yeah, so that was something I found really challenging. So when, when, looking at the study and picking up on that, I went, yeah, okay, that's, that's a big part of it.

Valerie Ling: 5:50

Um, and yeah, it doesn't surprise me that the stats are there so when I mean almost half of the kids endorse some level of loneliness, and you know, you can see that the average age is about age 12. So this would have been you before Kenya, and you know this idea that we have people. When you're in ministry, there's always people. You know your parents are around. If you have siblings, your siblings are around. You're always with you know some kind of activity where there's people? How does that link to loneliness then? Do you think, marsden?

Marsden Sampson: 6:26

Yeah, good question. I think despite the presence of lots of people, it doesn't always mean you feel connected to the people around you. I remember, particularly when Dad's been a minister, there sort of seems to be people over at your house all the time. But I'm definitely someone who I describe myself as a social introvert, like I'm very social and happy to be in that space, but at the end of the day I like my sort of quiet time and so when you've got a house full of people, it's pretty easy to want to retreat from that a lot, to want to retreat from that a lot and a lot of the time.

Marsden Sampson: 7:08

The rectory is fairly close to the church physically.

Marsden Sampson: 7:11

One of the ones we were at it was literally shared a fence and so you pull into your driveway and you can see everything happening at church, even though you're not at that service, you're not engaged in the youth group or whatever it is.

Marsden Sampson: 7:22

That can feel pretty close and intense and again potentially lead to wanting to feel the need to withdraw. I think another thing that potentially leads to maybe feeling sort of lonely and isolated is particularly when you first started the church. You know you've been announced from the front. There was a slideshow a few weeks ago welcoming the new minister and his family. So everyone knows who you are, yeah, but you don't necessarily know who they are, and what that can often result in is a you you're, they feel like they know you, and so there's maybe less effort to um to welcome you into things, and because it's sort of almost the vibe of you're locked in straight away, um, yeah, so that that can be a tricky one as well yeah, I remember one kid put on their comments card this is probably is a kid on the field is like there are.

Valerie Ling: 8:15

There were hundreds or maybe even thousands of people with my photo on their fridge. It's just a weird concept like people know, you know your name, and yet you you don't. How does a kid connect with that dynamic? Hey, yeah, for sure and what about um then, being able to being able to relate to people at school? Can you get some of those friendship needs met, or is there a barrier there?

Marsden Sampson: 8:43

as well.

Marsden Sampson: 8:45

So my schooling in Australia and my schooling in Kenya have been quite different experiences. I've been blessed to have a fairly significant overlap with my school friends and church friends during my schooling in Australia and so it felt part of that community because it in a number of ways felt like the one sort of community I'd have, the friends at school and we'd all go to, you know, youth group on a Friday together. But in Kenya it was a bit of a different sort of bit of a different vibe there and I think it can be interesting going to another country where people live there and there's this weird sort of you've come to my country to to help, and that can sometimes feel a bit, um, I don't know, intrusive from their perspective. So, despite being at a Christian school, there were, like I remember having some conversations with people being like so what are you like, what is your family doing here? Like we're sort of fine, we don't really need this, and so there can be a bit of like, I don't know, a bit of a barrier there sometimes.

Valerie Ling: 9:49

Yeah, I think one of the interesting things you just said in this piece is that having lots of people over, or having lots of people over, or having lots of people know you and still feeling disconnected, and then there's this cycle thing that you withdraw, hey kind of pull back.

Valerie Ling: 10:08

Maybe you don't want to actually be in the spotlight or try to be too open because it's like you know, 100 people getting to know one of you. Yeah, one of the things that you were talking about was, you know, as an older kid re coming back to Australia. It's not necessarily home. You left when you were 11 and then having to, like, go through this speeded learning. One of the things we picked up in the survey is that older kids, whether they're in parish ministry or cross-cultural ministry older kids feel the impact of being in ministry.

Marsden Sampson: 10:46

What do you think that's about, marston, in reflecting on your own experiences, I mean, I think there's the general when you're a kid, sometimes it's a bit of a go with the flow, um, home is where mom and dad is sort of thing. As you get older, um, I think it's important that, particularly on the mission field, that there's buy-in from the kids as well, um, and that there is this sense of we are doing it as a family, um, and I think a lack of that leads to you've pulled me away from my home, mum and Dad, you've dragged me to this place I don't want to be at. You've put me in this school. You've disconnected me from my friends, had to leave a pet behind, whatever it may be, and that can, depending on the buy-in from the kids. That can go one of two ways. They can feel like they're really connected to the missions work and feel like, no, no, this is us, we're doing this.

Marsden Sampson: 11:47

Or it can feel like I don't want to be here, this is ruining my life.

Marsden Sampson: 11:52

It's like aggressive ripped out of my life at a young age. Aggressive ripped out of my life at a young age, um, and I think the older you get, the more that um, that second possibility tends to be um more common, like if you're, if, if you're five, I don't know, maybe, maybe some five-year-olds find it really hard, but there's probably more of that go with the flow. But if you're halfway through high school, um, and I know some missions organizations actually have an upper limit on how old some of the kids can be, because I go, it's too hard with the kids you know, 15 16. We had some friends on the mission field who they moved over there when their oldest was, I think, somewhere in the ballpark of 15 16, and he just found it so hard, like he, he left behind a girlfriend and he only had two years left of high school and so he was planning on where he was going to go to uni and college and whatever yeah that led to this yeah you your missions thing, mom and dad, has destroyed my life.

Marsden Sampson: 12:54

It's had a destructive effect rather than a. As a family, we're doing this thing.

Valerie Ling: 12:59

Um yeah, that'd sort of be my experience maybe it's also because in that latter half of your like, of your adolescent years too, you you're kind of needing some hope that the future has got some stuff where you're independent.

Valerie Ling: 13:13

Yeah for sure you know, like you said, you might have some romantic relationships that are starting to blossom. You're starting to really want to just make your own way, you know, and in a familiar space. I think some of the things that I've come across, not necessarily in our survey but in reading adult TCK reflections was just a sense that you couldn't even plan to know, like if you really wanted to study a particular subject, that you would be able to get there or that the schooling system would match up really well. And you know it's just. There isn't this positive forward sense. It's a little bit harder because you know you've got all these complications to even get to independence or get to a future.

Marsden Sampson: 14:01

Yeah, yeah.

Valerie Ling: 14:04

And so it sounds like, when you returned to Australia, that that was a really hard time for you. What were some of the things that helped you, marsden?

Marsden Sampson: 14:15

Yeah, I think there's an element of which it just takes time to re-acclimate to what is a fairly new environment. Um, having having a couple solid friendships that had, um, lasted across my my years in kenya became really really key. So I had a couple of friends who particularly the ones who'd come and visited us in Kenya I found those to be really strong friendships when I got back. But some people that I sort of kept in touch with over the years or reconnected with when I got back, those friendships became really important and I found myself really valuing one or two, three really close friends rather than just a whole sort of bunch of close-ish friends and, and that became a significant, significant part of my life, significant coping mechanism. I don't know how far you'd go, um, but yeah, having those those relationships where that felt sort of safe and secure, like it's lasted for a long time.

Marsden Sampson: 15:21

So this, and also they felt like they knew me, particularly the ones that come and visit, because I think one of the biggest isolating things is I would enter a space be it a uni class or whatever I'd look and sound Australian, but I had radically different history background and so trying to relate with people, you know, you get a classic question oh, where did you go to high school? But I had radically different history background and so, trying to relate with people you know, you get a classic question oh where did you go to high school? Yeah, you probably haven't heard of it. Western Nairobi School in Kenya yeah, and half the people couldn't point to that on a map. Yeah, so even when you're trying to make connections, it feels a bit isolating. Yeah, so definitely the close relationships of people who knew me and knew my experience was important.

Valerie Ling: 16:07

And you've struck me as a reflective and insightful human being when I first met you and I think I wonder whether some of that is. You know all the moving and you have a greater awareness of the world and you know you have to think through some things beyond what an average 11, 12, 14, 15-year-old is, and I wonder if that also adds to. It can be then difficult to connect with peers, like whether you've been in mission or you've moved around Australia and been in ministry. As an older kid you probably get exposed to lots of preaching, lots of questions about life and culture and ethics. I wonder if that also adds to. Just it's hard to connect with. You know the masses.

Marsden Sampson: 16:55

Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, there have been a number of challenging things about being a missionary kid, but one incredible part is I have seen so much of the world and seen people in radically different circumstances. I've experienced different cultures, languages, and I spent the first 11 years-ish of my life in the Southern Shire, which is sort of an area known for being quite insular and not experienced with the rest of the world. Yeah, so I often think how different my life would look and how different a person I would be had I not you know been dragged half across the world at 11 years old.

Valerie Ling: 17:36

Yeah, now, marston, you know hard things happen in ministry. I also wondered whether for older kids, there is more of an awareness of the hard stuff, the hard things that happen in ministry. Did you find that because you've had all kinds of different ministry exposure now? But as an older kid did you feel like, oh, I've got this stuff, is stuff is bothering me, me personally? Was it like that?

Marsden Sampson: 18:04

for you, not not so much me necessarily, but more as a broader, affecting my, my family.

Marsden Sampson: 18:11

Um, I think, whether or not people remember this consciously or not, the people in ministry are real people with real emotions, and they have good days, they have bad days, but most significantly, they feel things when people give them a compliment or, unfortunately, feel things when people have negative things to say.

Marsden Sampson: 18:34

And so, yeah, there's definitely an element of you know, if Dad had come home and he's copped some feedback about something he said in the sermon, whether he meant to or not, that then has a broader impact on the family because you know, I've seen dad, you know, looking a bit down and conversely as well. If he's had a great morning, then you see that as well. And there's probably an element to which, the older you get, the more your parents sort of involve you in that, or, at the very least, you perceive more. Yeah, I think, particularly on our return to Australia and Dad's return to parish ministry. You know I was 19, 20. You're talking with your parents a lot more about sort of how work is going, rather than just church being this thing where dad's the boss and I go to Sunday school and everyone knows me, which is an attitude you might have as a kid.

Valerie Ling: 19:29

Yeah, yeah. So, reflecting overall on your experiences, how has it shaped you to be the person that you are, that you feel good about that you are, that you feel good about that you go? You know what? These are some things that I think have really shaped me, that I'm pleased about, Marston.

Marsden Sampson: 19:49

Yeah, yeah. Well, as I mentioned before, the experiences I've had, the different cultures I've experienced, has given me a very well, much more broad understanding of the world, and I think it's one of those things where, the more you learn, the more you realise just how much you don't know and how much of the world there is to explore, and so I'm grateful for those. I'm grateful for people I've met who are across the world, who you know I've been able to do life with. Like it's not often that you meet someone who's been to school with people from you know 10 different countries.

Marsden Sampson: 20:26

I am grateful for the reality check that I've experienced as a result of living in a third world country, and you see people in extreme poverty, and I find it helpful to remind myself of those experiences, particularly having lived in Sydney, um, for the last eight years. It's it's easy to to get caught up in the the hustle and bustle of this life and the things that really aren't that big a deal, like you know, traffic being bad or internet being slow like it helps to put those things back into perspective. Yeah, and so I'm thankful that I that I have those experiences to fall back on and a reminder like, yeah, so you know what this isn't so bad yeah, yeah.

Valerie Ling: 21:11

And if we can speak some wisdom into the space of these kids who have answered these questions and told us all these things, you know, what are some encouragements or some wisdom that you would give to them?

Marsden Sampson: 21:23

Yeah, I had an overall positive experience. There were definitely elements that were challenging, but I'm very thankful for my time in Kenya and I think if I was to sort of you know talk to my younger self, as it were, or someone in a similar position, I would say, hey, like there's definitely going to be some tough bits, but you'll likely, at the end of it all, be thankful for the experiences you've had. I think in terms of wisdom, it's important to well have your own faith and to cherish that and invest in that, because that also leads to the buy-in from people as to what their parents are doing. Yeah, I think those are probably the big things where you know if you don't feel connected often, churches are one of the biggest sources of community, so that would be another thing.

Valerie Ling: 22:16

Yeah, and, in terms of the faith community, caring for kids, what would be something that you'd want us to learn so that we could care better, deeper, more for the kids?

Marsden Sampson: 22:30

Yeah, particularly for missionary kids. I think one of my little pet peeves is the questions that missionary kids get asked. One of the more frustrating questions, I would say, is when someone is asked about their time living in another country in the same way that you would ask about a holiday. I lived in kenya for six and a half years and when someone finds out that information, they'll go oh, how was that? In the same way that you'd be like I just went to you know europe for three weeks. Oh, how was that? And so it's this really like tricky task. To try and summarize my entire high school life, my entire yeah, um experience in another country, into this one word oh, yeah, it was, it's pretty good.

Marsden Sampson: 23:16

So I think, understanding that there, there's a huge story behind that and I think also understanding that for a lot of missionary kids from Australia, australia is not home, and I think that's a really common misconception that, oh, it must be so great to be back, it must be so good to you know, see people again. But if you've got missionary kids who have lived in you know the mission field for the majority of their life, potentially even speak the language and go to a local school there, that probably feels like home to them. And there's an element to which I had both Australia and Kenya and I think that's a common thing. But you can have the mission field feel like home and, moreover, you can have the sending country, the home country, not feel like home. If you left Australia when you were really young and you're coming back as someone older, chances are you know, due to you being on the fridge of all these people, there's gonna be lots of people who know you and you have no idea who they are.

Marsden Sampson: 24:10

And so this, this misconception of, oh it must be fantastic now that you're back, like like the mission field was somewhere, sort of it's implied that they wanted to leave. Some kids are like, well, I can't wait to get back, like I miss my friends, I miss my house, my room, my dog, whatever it may be. So I think understanding that is a pretty key thing for returning missionary kids, because I think if you get asked that question or someone says, oh, it must be so great to be back, I think that instantly goes. You don't quite get what I'm going through.

Valerie Ling: 24:46

Actually, which makes me think of now deputation or home assignment. You know, when missionaries come back to Australia and the kids come back as well, what are some things we need to be aware of when you know we're seeing kids who are in Australia, this is not their home, and now they've got to put this little show and tell on yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. What do you need to know about that?

Marsden Sampson: 25:13

At least in my experience, a lot of the churches that supported us and were our link churches, um, mum and dad has had connections with those people, but we didn't know them at all and so you'd rock up and everyone would know who you are and that mum and dad would be chatting away and we're sort of sitting there like okay, answering the same sort of questions like oh, how was Kenya? Um, so I think that's sort of good to recognise. The other thing is that we had nine churches. So by the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th church, we've heard Dad do the same sermon, we've watched the same video, we've seen the same slideshow and we've been asked questions by, you know, members of the church, the exact same questions.

Marsden Sampson: 25:59

That's a pretty taxing thing, particularly for, you know, an eight-year-old, a 10-year-old.

Marsden Sampson: 26:06

It's also, you know, generally a pretty big day if there are multiple services and it's a good chunk of the weekend gone for, you know, for a kid. So that's a significant thing. But at the same time, on a less sort of negative note, I have very sort of positive memories of some churches where the reception was awesome and people just like took us under their wing straight away, because it can be intimidating to be like oh hey, everyone, this is the missionary kid, you know, look and stare and make them go to the kid's church and get up the front and ask them questions. Um, but there were there were fun ones where they would get in contact with us ahead of time and, you know, request something, and they really just met us where we're at. And so there was ones where, you know, I had this trivia prepared, so I ran a trivia for for sunday school and played games and stuff, and that for me I was like, oh okay, this is really cool, yeah. So I think that's a great way to do it, at least from my experience.

Valerie Ling: 27:07

So is it kind of like engaging with you and having your input and figuring out what it is that could make it meaningful?

Valerie Ling: 27:15

Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, and I know that there have been kids that have come throughout the practice where we've actually even asked like, um, is there a way that they can be excused from some bits of it, like you know? Is there a way to kind of like, could a grandparent come along, for example, um, so that they, they have someone to hang with with and feel like they're actually not, because I think you're right, like nine, if you're going around to nine different places, you know, I don't know that I'd be able to do it.

Marsden Sampson: 27:49

Yeah, it's a pretty neat task yeah.

Valerie Ling: 27:55

What sorts of encouragements might you have for parents, because you know I've said it in other episodes I don't want us parents and I say us because I've also got adult ministry kids who are still making sense of their experiences and reviewing the parenting. You know what sort of encouragement can we go about the things that are. You know this really made the difference for you and that parents can hear it and say, okay, that's not too hard for us to do. What would that be, do you think, marsden?

Marsden Sampson: 28:27

yeah, I mean, I think I've turned out okay yeah so at least one of us has, you know, managed to scrape through being both a minister's kid and a missionary kid and come out on the other side seemingly okay, I think, understanding that it's going to be different for each of us.

Marsden Sampson: 28:45

So I have two sisters and we went to the same school. We were in Kenya for the same amount of time, give or take, but had fairly different experiences at different points. A large part of that was due to friendship groups or how we were going with school, and so you can have kids from the same family walk away from the same experience with different, different experiences but in terms of like encouragement, I think all all three of us my two sisters and I have walked away with um a journey of of some challenging bits, but mostly good bits, and the three of us look back on our time in Kenya positively, to the point where a couple of years ago we went back and visited because it was something that we really wanted to, you know, go back to and experience again, even though there weren't many people there that we still were connected with In terms of being a minister's kid.

Marsden Sampson: 29:41

There have been some great highlights as part of that as well being able to sort of I don't know join a church and get stuck into serving straight away, because people sort of know who you are and, yeah, that's, that's been.

Valerie Ling: 29:54

That's been a highlight, for sure and marston, why don't we do a free plug for you? Hey, so you're on to some great professional things now. Would you like to share with our audience on any given day where they can find you for work?

Marsden Sampson: 30:09

Yeah, so I'm one of the owners at a gym in Gladesville called Vision Personal Training where I work with clients doing primarily weights training but also dealing with nutrition and education in that space and accountability. I work with clients who are trying to improve their health, be it through weight loss or through getting stronger, getting fitter, and I have a team of personal trainers that work under me and I'm sort of training them up as well to have their own clients.

Valerie Ling: 30:44

I think that that's pretty impressive, that you I'm sure it'll be a whole other podcast episode about how your experiences have led you to have, I think, the courage to jump into something like that and to be able to have the types of people, skills, risks, tolerance, but also empathy for the kinds of struggles that people have. Based on all of your experiences, I'm pretty certain that if we asked you, we'd be able to find it.

Marsden Sampson: 31:15

Absolutely. Actually, if I could add another bit of encouragement from a previous question just to trigger the memory, I'm very thankful for the interactions I've had intergenerationally. So as a result of going to a church, but even sort of multiple churches in deputation, I interacted with, you know, the kids in Sunday school and the teenagers in youth group and parents in morning church and the grandparents in morning church, and that has developed a real sort of ability to interact with people of different backgrounds and different ages and that's something I reflect on now as my job involves, you know, I say often my job is talking to people because I'm dealing with clients ranging from 16 to 66.

Valerie Ling: 32:08

And Martin, I just have to say and you're just great, I think there's a lot about you that is warm and humble and genuine and curious and kind and compassionate. I think there's a lot about you that this is why I reached out to you, because you really left. I like to think of it as kind of like a stain when you meet someone and I remember thinking to myself I think at that stage you might've only been 18 or 19 at that stage, but your honesty, in the way that you were reflecting about what you were experiencing and trying to make sense of it, I think that's you. So I've been so pleased to have a chat with you and thanks so much for taking the time. Asden, thanks for listening to the podcast. If you liked what you heard and you think others should hear it too, don't forget to like, share and subscribe. Catch you later.