Clergy Wellbeing Down Under
Welcome to the official first podcast of the Centre for Effective Serving, a research and consulting organisation focused on vocational wellbeing, burnout prevention, and training. In Season 1 we are focussing on Clergy Wellbeing Down Under. In Season 2 we looked at how ministry kids locally and on the mission field are doing.
In today's fast-paced and demanding world, support for those who serve by leadership is more crucial than ever. However, the pressures and challenges that come with leadership roles can often lead to burnout and exhaustion, both mentally and physically. At the Centre for Effective Serving, we understand the significance of addressing these issues head-on to create a healthier and more productive leadership landscape.
In each episode we delve into the latest research and resources developed by our team of experts, who are dedicated to enhancing leadership wellbeing and fostering a supportive environment for leaders to thrive. Our podcast provides valuable insights, evidence-based strategies, and practical tips to help leaders and their families maintain their well-being, improve their resilience, and prevent burnout.
Join us as we bring on renowned experts in the fields of psychology, mental health, leadership, and well-being to share their knowledge and experiences. Through candid interviews and engaging discussions, we explore various topics, including stress management techniques, emotional intelligence, work-life integration, team building, and much more.
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Clergy Wellbeing Down Under
Episode 4: Supporting Ministry Families with Neurodivergent Children with Tanya Crossman
How can you make church environments inclusive for neurodivergent children, especially those in ministry families serving abroad? Tanya Crossman brings part 2 to her interview with me and shares her lived, and expert insights on this critical topic.
Creating a welcoming space for all children in church is more than just a nicety—it's a necessity. Listen as we explore the importance of recognizing each child's individuality, from addressing them by name to understanding their unique interests. We also tackle the formidable challenges faced by ministry families in cross-cultural contexts, particularly in regions with limited support systems.
Finally, we delve into the complexities of seeking diagnosis and support for children in international settings. Tanya emphasizes the importance of advanced planning and consistent health assessments for families abroad. We discuss best practices for tracking child development, advocating for access to counselling and training, and the significance of supporting parents. With hope, direction, and gratitude, we aim to foster a supportive environment for families and the gospel. Listen in for a conversation that promises to equip you with the tools and insights needed to support neurodivergent children in ministry families.
Resources for ND kids/families:
Link to the upcoming workshop we talked about
Senia
For a copy of our survey results head here
Podcast Disclaimer:
Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
Hey there, I'm Valerie Ling and I'm a clinical psychologist and I will be your host for Season 2's episodes titled the Ministry Kids' Well-Being Down Under Episodes. We asked 100 ministry kids how they are doing. These are Australian kids who are either serving with their family locally or serving abroad on the field. If you haven't already done so, I recommend catching up on episode one, where I share the main findings from our survey. Every episode I'll talk to someone whom I hope will be able to help us understand and unpack what the kids told us. I hope you enjoy it. Let's do it.
Valerie Ling:So, tanya, one of the things that I'm really curious to ask you about is I think I must be signed up to your newsletter now, tanya, because I got some information about a workshop for neurodivergence. Is that correct? That's coming up in November, so in this part of the podcast I'd love to put that link. I was asked this question by an agency not too long ago about how do we actually prepare families, support families with kids who are going on the field. We may not know their neurodivergent needs it may emerge on the field, but you know, I just would love your free flowing thoughts on this topic.
Tanya Crossman:Sure, yeah. So my sister and I are going to do this workshop together. So I'm like one of the experts in the TCKs. She's actually an expert in Australia on neurodivergence, so she runs a clinic, a multidisciplinary clinic, for neurodiverse kids, teens, young adults and their parents. That is literally what she does. She used to work for Headspace. She did talks on the national stage for Headspace, around this kind of stuff, and so the workshop that we're doing is going to be doing some information on what are we actually talking about and then talking about so what are some of the key issues for parents who are parenting overseas and parenting internationally, who have ND kids at home and one of the big things that's come up for me in the last couple of years is I've had parents coming and having these requests from them is just talking through the fact that change and transition is hard on everyone. It's especially hard for ND kids.
Tanya Crossman:And that includes chapel days, it includes new schools and new homes, and my biggest piece of advice for every family is that having grace and compassion for that difficulty is really important, and so everything that we can invest into comfort and soothing for each member of the family, whether they're neurodiverse or not, like neurodiverse, neurotypical, doesn't matter what your neurotype is we all need some soothing and some comfort during those times of extra stress, and so expecting that and planning around that can make a huge difference.
Tanya Crossman:So knowing what are the sensory triggers for your kid, knowing how to soothe them and being prepared ahead of time can make all of those hard days easier. So if you have a kid who really struggles with travel, being prepared ahead of time with sunglasses or a hooded sweatshirt or their favorite snack or headphones, and they're creating playlists specifically for stressful days or travel days, creating routines that every time we travel we have this kind of food or we play this game or creating these kind of rhythms and these, you know we have our plain outfits that we know feel a certain way. We've got a fuzzy blanket, we've got the soft toy, whatever it is. Coming up with things where you're not fighting against it but you're working with those stressors just makes everyone's life a lot easier.
Valerie Ling:So let's return to some definitions. In neurodivergence, that includes children and adults, autism spectrum, adhd, dyslexia. What else have you come across in your work so?
Tanya Crossman:I'm autistic and probably ADHD, my sister's dyslexic and ADHD, so we cover a fair bit right there. Generally speaking, basically, neurodivergence just is any neurotype, any way of the brain being wired that doesn't fit the norm, whatever that means. Whatever is the typical, the average way that people's brains work. So usually when people talk about neurodivergence they mean autism, adhd and special learning difficulties. So that's dyslexia, dyscalculia and dyspraxia. I have been learning from my sister for this workshop that she has put together all the slides for I have it all off the top of my head now, and so it usually means those three groupings. Right, that's what people usually mean. Sometimes they'll include other things. I've heard OCD included as part of that too. What matters is it's just a recognition that some brains just work differently.
Valerie Ling:So tell me about you and my sister, sorry, yeah, go on.
Tanya Crossman:No, go on. Sorry, yeah, go on, no, go on, please go on for most people so. So my sister really comes from what's called a social disability model, which means that recognizing that there's nothing wrong with the way my brain is wired. My life just gets a bit stressful sometimes because the brain, the world, is set up for the way different brains are wired, and so that's where the stresses and challenges for me come, with the world being set up for a different neurotype than mine.
Valerie Ling:Let's start with church environments and church communities. I've heard this hypothesis that we're not completely friendly in the way that we do church. Um yeah, what are your thoughts?
Tanya Crossman:about this. Oh, I definitely have things that I do to make church more friendly for me, but also, you got to understand a lot of us who were late diagnosed. I got my diagnosis at 29. Um, I spent most of my life masking to look normal, to look neurotypical, so I can act like everybody else. And when I finally get myself permission to go, oh, I'm not like everybody else and I can let go of some of those layers. I can be more comfortable, more at peace, less stressed, less anxious. That was, that was the difference and the change for me. And so now what I do?
Tanya Crossman:Instead of like white, knuckling it and being like everybody else, I can do things that are going to make my life easier, even though I might look weird at other people. So, for example, I find it really hard to concentrate on spoken word content, and so when I was in lectures for my master's, I would be playing a little number game on my phone, playing like 2048 or something, because I could concentrate better that way. I would let my lecturers know ahead of time. That's what I would do. It'll look like I'm texting all the way through class. This is what I'm actually doing.
Tanya Crossman:My classmates found it hilarious that I could be sitting there staring at my phone, put my hand up, ask a question, interrupt the lecture, ask the question, then go straight back to my little phone, and I do the same thing in sermons. I can pay attention better when I'm doing something that helps my brain focus, and I got to the point that I'm like there are times where I need to look like I'm paying attention and there are times where I would prefer to actually pay attention, and so that's what I do. And so there have been times where my stress levels have been too high and I've needed to sit outside and listen to church from outside, because the noise or the light or the temperature was too much for me, and so I would just go outside. I've done sermons sitting on the steps outside, listening. It really depends on the environment.
Valerie Ling:There's a range of things. If we just talk church for a minute, because I'll ask you about the cultural context, but just church for a minute, it's highly social Lots of noise, yes, lots of people wanting to interact with you, lots of expectations that nobody wrote down either. Lots of sitting still Lots of sitting, oh yes, so much ADHD.
Valerie Ling:Plus, for some ministry families, how you dress for church is also really important, like the socks and the tags and things like that. Right now we've got what we know of our ministry kids who are told us that they feel that they're held to a higher standard that there's no, there's very little wiggle room for them. Um, being judged like can you imagine I'm sure you can, but can our listeners imagine if you had to bear down with that for 29 years? We've got an opportunity now. I think that we've heard from these kids that there's probably a percentage of these kids in our survey who is struggling with some of the things that you said, but in their little world with no control and fear of getting in trouble.
Tanya Crossman:What I found really fascinating, especially someone who wasn't diagnosed until later I'd been working with TCKs for several years. Once I got my diagnosis, there's a lot of overlap between some of the not symptoms, some of the I'm sorry vocabulary just asserted me Expressions, manifestations or, yeah, some of the traits maybe that we see in TCKs and in ND people. There's some similarities, some overlaps, and I'm talking here about people who have got a reasonably high processing speed, so have got the ability to mask, because what I'm talking about is the masking that both TCKs and neurodiverse people have To blend in.
Valerie Ling:Yeah.
Tanya Crossman:Yes, what I found really interesting when I started working with TCKs is within six months I was in with this group of TCKs, I was invited to all of the recitals and all of the events. I was being invited to family Christmases, all kinds of things. None of the other youth leaders just me, at least not to the same extent. I remember going to a piano recital and all the other youth leaders were out having a picnic on Tiananmen Square or something. Because why not? And I'm like why wasn't? Why am I the only one here?
Tanya Crossman:and I'm like, because none of the others were invited like what's different, and part of it was that I saw straight through all of their masking because I was doing the same thing. When they said, oh, I'm fine, and they clearly weren't fine, well, it's only appealing to me because I was doing the same thing and I'd been doing the same thing my whole life.
Tanya Crossman:Um, and not just because I was a tck, but because I was autistic, I I was seeing through some of those strategies and those coping techniques that they had. Yeah, um and I think this is true of ministry kids in general as well the the ability to put on the face and be who you have to be in the situation, to look the way you have to look and act the way you have to act, even if that's completely different to who you actually feel like you are inside.
Valerie Ling:Yeah, and.
Tanya Crossman:I think a lot of neurodiverse people do the same thing, and so you see a lot of the same traits for a similar reason because we're masked, yeah and I think it's.
Valerie Ling:I find that really interesting that overlap yeah and and, and I think it it really speaks to the point of how remarkable these kids are, um their genuine desire to not, um, you know, disrupt their parents' ministry and to be helpful and in service, that they could hold all of that in.
Valerie Ling:But it probably also speaks to the point of we just need to cut them some slack. You know Kids in ministry already have such a spotlight on them and if we do see something in church that's out of the ordinary maybe you know they're tugging off their socks or you know they sort of can't sit still is to not call attention to that, is to maybe hold a position in our own mind that you know this kid is really just doing the best that they can. It's no comment on their parents' parenting or this kid's character, but is there anything else that faith communities like let's start with churches, because we'll cross over to the agencies and cross culture but is there anything else that maybe churches can do to? You know, sort of be ministered to kids who might have these challenges at church?
Tanya Crossman:That's a great question. Well, how about I start with some things I've seen done that I think are fantastic? Yeah, well, how about I start with some things I've seen done that I think are fantastic? Yeah, one of the things I love about the church I attend at the moment is that nobody seems to care about kids making noise. Right, when kids are noisy, nobody seems to care. Nobody says, oh, you should go to the baby room. It's just assumed that children will make noise because they are children. Just assumed that children will make noise because they are children. And when there's this freedom for everybody for kids to be kids, right, it takes pressure off parents that they're not getting those looks from people and it doesn't matter if they're ministry parents or not. It creates this safe environment for everyone to let kids be kids and to let parents off the hook, right, that their kids don't have to be on their best behavior on Sundays because they're still kids on Sunday. Yeah, and so many families are so busy all the time that, yeah, it's, it's hard.
Tanya Crossman:It's hard work being a kid, you know it's hard work sitting still and and doing all the things, and so and actually there's a lot of change and transition.
Valerie Ling:There's a lot of change and transition. There's a lot of change and transition in the ministry day. You're rushing to get out of the house and then you're moving from one activity to another.
Tanya Crossman:Yeah, yeah. And I think the other one is when we can see children as individuals, not as so-and-so's child, when children are addressed by name and we know their quirks and we know their interests.
Tanya Crossman:It makes a huge difference because then they're not just a reflection of their parents and of their parents' ministry or their parents' job. They're their own person, and we take the time to get to know this child as an individual. What is their name? What do they like? Is there a sport that they like? Is there a book that they are they into reading? Like we know something about them that we can ask oh, how did your soccer match go this week? Are you reading a new book?
Tanya Crossman:Being able to ask a question about themselves can set kids at ease, because then it's not just how are your parents right, it's I know who you are. And when you know me personally, I feel like there's more space for me to be myself, and there's something so important to kids about having those adults in their lives who see them, and it's one of the best things we can do for their ministry parents, as well as to love their kids. One of the best things we can do for any parent is to love their kids and care about their kids and know their kids. It doesn't matter what their kids struggle with beautiful.
Valerie Ling:So, turning in in a cross-cultural context and this is a genuine question for me as well, because you know, I'm still trying to figure it out when we see families already on the field and they could be in countries and environments where there's not a lot of support and the agency is also trying to figure out. You know, like in australia, we're so blessed you got pediatricians, you've got occupational therapists, speech therapists, psychologists, but you're overseas and you're in a country that doesn't have all of that. What can be done? How can agencies or what's the goal?
Tanya Crossman:Well, there are a lot of fantastic online resources these days. So to start with knowing what's out there and how to access that is a great start. So that's one of the things my sister and I have pulled together for this workshop. It's a huge list of online resources websites and parent communities and books and YouTube, you name it. We've got lists of resources because there is a lot out there. The problem is knowing where to go and what's quality. So that's why having someone is knowing where to go and and what's quality. So that's why having someone like my sister who could tell you what's quality, is great. So I I will give you the link to her website. She has a public resource list, which is a fantastic place to start with resources for children and teenagers and adults and parents, of things that you can go to and quality books and YouTube videos and all kinds of things, and so starting with just picking a couple of resources so that you aren't alone on the journey is a great place to start, and there are a few now international places to go.
Tanya Crossman:So SENIA S-E-N-I-A is a network that works with international schools, helping provide better access for children with physical disabilities, with learning difficulties, and trying to help have better access and inclusion in the international school network. So they're a fantastic resource and there's other parent organizations as well. The next one is trying to work out if we want to go down a diagnosis and support pathway. It's going to be different for every family and country situation, because some countries will have access for non-citizens, some won't, some countries just have very little available full stop and some places will require you to get stuff from your passport country in order to access services. So it's going to require being aware of what's happening in that country and doing research. So the more that a company can do, an organization can do, to know what's happening in a country and be able to provide that so that every family doesn't have to redo research that's really really helpful um.
Tanya Crossman:So for families who need to get diagnosed as often, doing that process in australia for australian families is the easiest way to do that, but that usually means booking and planning like a year in advance to be able to get a slot on the books at a time that you're going to be in the country. If you're living outside Australia, my sister has done this for several families, like slot them in during their visit to Canberra. But, yeah, you've got to plan long in advance to make sure you can get on the calendar and if something goes wrong as it did in one case for one family that was it the whole window where they could be available was gone. So, planning it well in advance, finding the right person and the right clinic, like a year in advance, getting on the books so that you can plan it out long term yeah, is really important and having the support of an organisation to help them make the decision and to do those steps ahead of time is really helpful.
Valerie Ling:We've gotten used now to seeing whole families and tracking the progress of the kids, so you know, as long as the kids can talk, we see them every three years and we've actually found that really, really, really beneficial because we're working from baselines and then tracking to see where the kids are going up and down. And one of the things that I've been thinking about is how important it is for if kids are going on to the field, that we don't realize how blessed we are. In Australia the window to look into a child's welfare is multiple. You've got teachers, you've got nurses, you've got doctors, you've got you know and everybody's educated to a level that you can see if there's something going on with a kid and then get early intervention. But when a child is on the field.
Tanya Crossman:You talk to each other in a way that you understand what the child? Is talking about.
Valerie Ling:But when a child is on the field, they lose all of that Absolutely. So I actually wonder about you know, having some ways that we can and I think you guys are working on this, or, karina. Is that correct Sort of what are the best practices when children are on the field? To put a health assessment and regular check-in so that the kids can be tracked through their development through a pediatrician watching their speech, watching their motor?
Tanya Crossman:schools, because each country has their own benchmarks and their own systems, and so you go into that system, like I mean, even going from Australia to the US as a teenager, we went into a completely different tracking model yeah With you, yeah, and it didn't. The two didn't really connect with each other at all.
Valerie Ling:No, but maybe that's something that from an Australian base, we can do, because Australia is really really blessed that we've got the ability to do that and if agencies can somehow tap into you know the right set of professionals, like your sister, before the families go on the field and then track them through, because these days you can do a lot online from an Australian base and that way, you know kids can also then be sort of tracked and watched and supports put in as and when needed. If there was one thing you could say to the agency across the board not just about what we've talked about in this part, but also our first part you know one thing you'd love to sort of leave with agencies about the care of the culture cues. What's the one thing you'd want to say to them, tanya?
Tanya Crossman:I think the one thing that would make the biggest difference for ministry kids and cross-cultural kids around the world is for parents to be really well resourced, for parents to have access to, to outside counseling, for parents to not not someone who's employed by their agency, um. For parents to have access to training, whether that's workshops or books or whatever works for them having some kind of budget for that. Because that's where we see one of the biggest links in the chain and I think we see that in your research, we see that in our research is when parents aren't doing well, they can't parent at their best, and what the kids want more than anything is they want their parents' presence.
Valerie Ling:Yeah.
Tanya Crossman:And so you know, anything we can do to help parents have the emotional space and stability is, yeah, anything we can do to support those parents. They are doing an amazing job, they're doing their best and sometimes they just need some more space, some more time off, some more resources that are going to support them in doing what they really want to do, which is love their kids.
Valerie Ling:And, you know, any encouragement for the parents themselves? Tanya.
Tanya Crossman:Parenting's hard everywhere, right? There's no magic button, magic one that's going to fix it, and it's okay that it's tricky and hard, it's okay. And just by showing up and listening to conversations like this, you are demonstrating that you are a good parent who cares and wants what's best for your kids. So pat on the back like take a deep breath, right? I think that's the first thing is trying to take off that weight of shame or guilt or anxiety, whatever it is that you personally carry as a parent, and to be kind to yourself.
Tanya Crossman:I think that has to always be that first step, and the next one is to choose one thing. There's so much out there, but choose one thing, one area that you want to grow in or want to learn about and pursue that. Don't try and do everything all at once. Choose one thing and try and find someone to walk alongside, whether that's another parent or a friend who you can talk to about what you're learning and, yeah, so that you don't feel alone on your journey.
Valerie Ling:Amazing on your journey. Amazing, tanya. I've learned so much from you and it's a real joy to see someone who has been so focused in the people group that they're trying to help and then, with that focus, just you know, gathering so much wisdom and being able to see that I think it's possible. You know, it creates hope, right when you can say, well, you know, here are the four things, or here are the three things and you know I really had to say the one thing, it'd be like just head in this direction.
Valerie Ling:So thank you so much for your ministry and your service, not just to the kids, to the gospel itself, Um, and you know, for this generation and the generations to come. Thank you so much.
Tanya Crossman:Well, thank you so much. This has been such a treat. I love having these kind of conversations and I'm so thankful for what you're doing here in Australia. Australia, I feel like, is still a bit behind the ball in knowing our families well and caring for them well, and so I am delighted for the research that you're doing, the work that you're doing and keeping these conversations open and happening.
Valerie Ling:Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you liked what you heard and you think others should hear it too, don't forget to like, share and subscribe. Catch you later.
