Episode 2: What Stood Out to the Psychologists Behind the Ministry Kids' Survey

In this episode, we sit down with the psychologists who designed and analyzed the Ministry Kids Wellbeing Survey to uncover the key insights and findings that stood out to them. From surprising trends to eye-opening revelations, they share what the kids themselves told us, and what we discovered about the unique challenges and experiences faced by ministry kids. Whether you're a parent, part of a faith community who wants to support ministry kids, or simply curious about the well-being of children growing up in ministry families, this episode offers a behind-the-scenes look at the data, along with practical takeaways to support these kids in thriving under the public gaze.

To download the full survey report head over here

Podcast Disclaimer:

Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!

Transcript

0:02

Welcome to season two. It's all about the Ministry Kids Wellbeing Down Under episodes this time. My name is Valerie Ling. I'm a clinical psychologist and we asked a hundred kids in ministry how they were doing. These are kids who are either serving locally in Australia with their parents or internationally on the field. I really recommend catching up. on episode one of the podcast series because that'll give you the background to our survey and our findings. I hope you enjoy the next episode of the Ministry Kids Wellbeing Down Under.

Valerie Ling: 0:42

Welcome everybody I've got Monica Jacob with me and I've also got Thomas Cheeseman with me. They're both psychologists in the practice at the Center for Effective Living. Monica has actually come out of maternity leave to come and chat with us about this topic that I know is so important to her, to us. So, Monica, let's start with you. This was really your maternity gift to us. We sent you with a project to do some research into what we can find about what the kids in ministry experience. And you actually came up with the first draft for the survey. I wonder for you, what was What was motivating for you to be a part of this project?

Monica Jacob: 1:34

Well, for some context, um, I'm a missions kid myself, and I have forever been intrigued, um, about the experiences of other missions kids. You know, do they have the same experiences that I do? Do they have, do they have this identity crisis when they were 12 years old? Working at CFEL. I did quite a few mission debriefs and got to hear the experiences of children currently on the mission field. Um, also having clients who were and still are ministry kids and missions kids, adults retrospectively looking back and reporting, narrating their childhood experiences. Um, also, I think way before the survey, I had interviewed a few, uh, MKs I knew to get an idea of what their experiences were like. And these were summarized as blogs for the Center for Effective Serving website, which you can give a read if you'd like and have some time. Um, so I think all of these put together when Valerie shared her idea of doing a survey and then a podcast sometime last year, I jumped on it immediately. Um, and for me, there was a personal investment. because, um, I really wanted to see whether children now are going through similar challenges that I did all those years ago. So I guess the main aim while creating it was just curiosity to know what really matters to these children and to give them a voice.

Valerie Ling: 3:04

So I'm actually curious that you are an adult MK, missions kid. And you're a psychologist who's worked with, with quite a lot of our clients who are in ministry, and there was still something personal in this for you to go, am I, do other people experience what I, what have I, what I've experienced? You know, it strikes me really interesting that we can have this professional knowledge, like we can know that yes, these things happen, but there's still something personal for us to try to figure out.

Monica Jacob: 3:40

Yeah, absolutely. Because when I hear or when I've heard many of these Children speak, it's like I could see myself. I still remember this mission debrief I did where this I think this 14 15 year old girl said, I don't feel like I belong anywhere. I'm too Australian for Whatever country they were based in Japan, for example. And I'm too Japanese for Australia. And I felt that very, very deeply because that's exactly what I felt at that age. So I feel like I spoke to these children when I was reading all these research studies, going through them, I felt like I was looking in the mirror and I don't know how else, how better to describe that. So it wasn't just facts and data and statistics, but it was, you know, legitimate experiences of individual, um, human beings. Yeah.

Valerie Ling: 4:41

Yeah. Now, I remember at one point, just before you went on mat leave, you and I were sitting down about the ethics of asking young children about what they're thinking and feeling. And I think at one point I said to you, Mon, I'm We might just have to keep the survey for the older kids. And you just went, No! No! We should be asking the little kid. Why is that? Why were you keen for us to get down to the little kids? Because

Monica Jacob: 5:06

they're important

Valerie Ling: 5:08

too.

Monica Jacob: 5:09

Um, because there isn't a lot out there. I think when I started the literature review, I went in with this illusion that there's this massive body of research and literature that's out there. That's explored children and young adults and the entire age range, but they, there isn't a lot of material out there. There isn't enough out there. So when we had the discussion, um, I think I felt a bit deflated because It's like, no, we need to add to what's not there. Right. And again, personally speaking, that age, you're, you're not, you haven't fully comprehended what your parents are doing, but you still know what's happening. You understand, but you don't. So it's that, that very fine balance between, I know I'm different, but I don't know what's different about me.

Valerie Ling: 6:05

That's so interesting. Now, Thomas, I see you and two others in the practice with a happy job of wading through what we call the qualitative data. That is all the comments that the kids made, right? Because we actually had a number of what we call open ended questions where the kids would just type their answers in. And we set a, a three of you up to go through all of that. So I'd say that you probably are one of the few people that have an intimate knowledge of what these kids have said,

6:40

Yes.

Thomas Cheeseman: 6:40

Yes. What really stood out for you?

Valerie Ling: 6:43

Yeah. What really stood out for you, Thomas?

Thomas Cheeseman: 6:45

It was a real joy to see the. Diversity and the answers that came from these kids. Um, and I think building on what Monica said, didn't matter what age they came from. They all had different kind of thoughts and perspectives because they're all different people living quite different lives. But within this kind of category of mission or ministry kids, um, what stood out for me is, uh, and if you've seen the results from the survey, these kids do feel. Different from their peers. It was, I think it was 60 something percent was the official data. Um, and a lot of the answers that kids typed out also reflected these, these differences of, of having different weekends and spending their time differently and knowing that their parents are doing something that's substantially different in their work and in how their work is done. Works compared to their friends. Um, and so even though, uh, as we looked at the data, it wasn't like all the children were super bothered by this difference, there was a real knowledge that they were different, uh, amongst the majority of, of the kids.

Valerie Ling: 7:58

One of the things that stood out for me is, um, you know, I would have assumed that ministry and mission. So, you know, ministry being kids in Australia in parish ministry or in, um, parachurch ministry in Australia and the kids who are in the field, Australian kids living on the field. I thought that we would, you know, be able to tell them apart at first glance. Um, but what came through for me is that there's an awful lot of similarity. In what they experienced, actually, what do you think, Thomas?

Thomas Cheeseman: 8:31

Yeah, that was actually one of the surprises for me as well. Um, as I was looking through some of the, the responses, there was one that really stood out to me in that it was about a kid who moved within Australia, but had moved in a way. Um, and moving was a big factor that lots of kids noticed as something that affected them, but they noted in their written down answer that they'd moved from somewhere. Near the beach where they spent a lot of time outside and engaging with people and doing activities. And that was the culture of the environment. And then they'd moved somewhere else where there, there wasn't that outdoor culture. There wasn't that, uh, there wasn't that beach, which they loved and they were used to living near and it had thrown their cultural environment. And what they did with their free time was now different. Um, and yeah, very similar in a sense, I suppose different, but similar to. Moving cultures overseas and that they were really that really affected their lives like what they do with their free time. Yeah, I

Valerie Ling: 9:31

would say that that probably in the early days of doing missions debrief. So, um, Monica mentioned that mission debrief in Center for Effective Living essentially means that, um, when returning field members. Uh, to Australia come, we, we do a screen, a wellbeing screen, just to check in on them. One of the things that I discovered very early on in the work was that Australians don't realize how much we are connected to the environment until we go overseas. Um, and all of our coping, our sense of beauty, our sense of wellbeing can sometimes be really connected to environment. So, you know, if you've grown up close to the Northern beaches and then, you know, you move to Africa. That's two really stark environments, um, and for adults having to calibrate that, but I'm with you, Thomas, that one really stood out to me as well, that I often don't think about the kids, like you think about kids going on mission, like overseas, but just even within Australia, we have such diverse landscapes, such diverse geography, um, and that without that sort of awareness of preparation for kids, it can actually impact them. As well.

Thomas Cheeseman: 10:42

Yeah. And I think really saw that throughout that person's response, but throughout other responses as well of, of moving and you uproot, not just your friendship groups, which I think the obvious thing that we think of when we think of that moving impact for kids within Sydney or within Australia or within New South Wales or within, we think about friends and of course that's significant, but there were those other elements that came out as well of, of lifestyle and, um, just, you know, Not being connected to the places we're used to being connected to which can create a real impact on identity.

Valerie Ling: 11:15

Yeah So Monica, I know one of the things that you dug up from the literature was grief and loss issues

11:21

Um,

Valerie Ling: 11:23

the kids, right. And like you said, quite a lot of what we know about those grief and loss issues come from adult ministry. Kids reflecting back, um, here we had an interesting insight to, you know, roughly 10 to 14 was kind of where the hump of our stats were most kids were 10 to 14 in their own ways, expressing what that meant. Um, I just wanted to come back to something you said where 12 year old you. It's kind of looking in the mirror now and going, Oh, if you could think about when you were that age, 10 to 14, you said you have an awareness of what your parents are doing, but you don't really, what are these kids likely experiencing? They're saying ministry seems great. But, but, but, but, but.

Monica Jacob: 12:10

Yeah. Um, I wanted to add to what you just, uh, said about loss. It's, it's almost this sense of disenfranchise, it's an, it's an experience that. is quite ambiguous to a 12 year old, right? Making it quite so difficult, confusing, or even unacceptable to mourn. Yes, you've moved from one city to another. You moved and that's what's, what's the big deal there, right? But I, as a 12 year old have lost my friendships, I've lost my, my home or anything that's familiar. The pavement outside looks different.

12:47

An

Monica Jacob: 12:49

existential loss, like who am I, where am I from? Am I from the Northern beaches or am I from where else, right? Where do I belong? I lost everything that I knew for the past two years. So I think for 12 year old me, um, It's the sense of, I know something has changed, but I don't know how to express my feelings about that change because I don't have that, that environment around me that facilitates these conversations, right?

Valerie Ling: 13:17

Yeah, I love, I love that reflection. So Thomas, I know you've done a lot of work with kids, that age group, it's true, isn't it? What Monica says, I can, I know something's not quite right. But I don't actually know how to say it.

Thomas Cheeseman: 13:30

Um,

Valerie Ling: 13:30

it's, it's not uncommon, but yeah, they said lots.

Thomas Cheeseman: 13:35

Yeah. And I think that's the thing that I really appreciated going through all of the responses was that they had so much to say. Um, and even if they didn't know exactly What the problem was or exactly what the results was there was these things that came through which were great to see

13:53

yeah,

Thomas Cheeseman: 13:55

and You could really see that this is something that was affecting them and they were probably in the midst of figuring out what that

Valerie Ling: 14:02

I'm with you

Thomas Cheeseman: 14:04

And I imagine, I imagine that we probably started some conversations with these kids that they haven't completed yet, or they completed after they filled out the survey, where they probably went to their parents, Hey, I just realized that these things are not the same as my friends. I need to figure out what that means. Uh, I think we'll probably see that happening.

Valerie Ling: 14:24

I love that reflection, Thomas, because I had such an affection for the data, because on the one hand, you had these scores that were suggesting, you know, they're relatively okay. But then the comments was we're all like, and I think it's what you're saying is this emergent realization, you know, sort of when you're seven to nine, the world is about school parents, what you do at home, and that's about it, but kind of as you're moving into 10, 12, 11, You know, sort of 14, 15, some of the identity stuff comes up as well, isn't it? You're starting to notice when you're feeling different. So I was curious, like one of the things that I thought it was just me talking to ministry kids, right? Like my own kids was that, how do you explain what your parents do? Um, that was interestingly quite a common thing that came up. I thought. With the kids open like the comments that they made. Did you think Thomas?

Thomas Cheeseman: 15:20

Yeah, yeah They kind of had this idea and I think there was sometimes a fear of perception Yeah, what does what the mom and dad do all there? They they talk to people about Religion for the, for their job. It's not, it's not the same as the generic answers that go around the room at school, I, I, I shoot. Um, and so I think there was a fear there and sometimes a, an unsureness. What do I say? How do I summarize this? And, you know, I've just come into a new environment. I've just moved perhaps. Uh, why, why have you moved? And immediately that question is there of, you know, Why are you doing this thing that, you know, isn't that common of an experience of, of moving schools or moving environments?

Valerie Ling: 16:05

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, one thing that, another thing that was common between the two groups was this feeling that they held to a higher standard somehow. Um, cause one thing that I reflected, I remember pushing the shopping trolley in the supermarket and just exploding on my husband. Oh my gosh, here's another thing they all have in common. They all belong to a faith community. Right. No matter where you are, you know, whether you're serving on the field or you're serving locally, you got to go to some kind of faith community, some kind of church or some kind of gathering. So there's another thing they have in common, which is the sense that they've got either held to higher expectations or they've got to look good or have all the correct answers. Um, Do you think, Monica, that that would be fair? Like, it doesn't matter if you're in a local ministry context or you're overseas, maybe kids worry about these things.

Monica Jacob: 17:01

I think so, because if you're overseas, you're, you're different. You're so different. Um, and especially that, that age of, say, 11 to 15, 16, you already feel like there's a space. Spotlight on you. The spotlight effect already exists. And then there's this additional spotlight of being a ministry kid or a missions kid. Um, I can get quite glaring at times, right? So that sense of being held to a higher standard or your so and so's daughter, I don't really expect you to have a temper tantrum in the middle of the shops, right? So I think, um, I'm just reflecting as you're talking about it, I'm reflecting on what it was like for me at that age. When I'm with my peers, everyone knows that I am this missionaries daughter and maybe I, I felt this pressure to know it all to have all the answers to add the Bible quiz, right? Um, things like that, where there was this undue pressure put on me or this feeling of being. Scrutinize being watched. It can be quite burdensome.

Valerie Ling: 18:04

Um, yeah, it did

Monica Jacob: 18:06

take a while for for me to feel like I am. I'm just a child. I'm just like everyone else, but my experience is different. So I feel like that did come up in the survey as well. I went through the results of being held to a higher standard just because of, you know, And

Valerie Ling: 18:29

I think the stats are around like a whole bunch of stats to see what the differences between the two groups were. And the one difference was that for kids on the field, the feeling of being different bothers them more than the kids in parish. So, you know, I remember like our kids were, um, we lived overseas, like my whole family, even as a kid, I lived overseas. But when you physically look different. You're always different. No matter where you go, whether it's the shops or public transport, you're always being looked at because you look different. So I reckon that kind of amplifies already the sense that all my parents are in ministry. We're doing the Jesus thing. I've got to have all the right answers. And. I am actually different. I'm on the outside. It's a lot. It's a lot for,

Monica Jacob: 19:22

uh, for a child to make sense of and handle.

Valerie Ling: 19:27

Kind of putting you on the spot here, Thomas, but did any of the comments stand out for you in this realm? Like when you think about any ones that really stood out for you? In

Thomas Cheeseman: 19:36

terms of, in terms of, yeah, feeling different,

Valerie Ling: 19:42

there was

Thomas Cheeseman: 19:42

a comment, um, and it was quite a reflective comment. I really appreciated it. That said that ministry kids sometimes get a lot of burden, which can be hard to handle. And they reflected, they reflected that they feel like they've grown and matured as a result of that. And that's, and that's fantastic. And I think that is something that we saw a bit of a trend of as well. And some of the responses that kids have seen that the, the growth, the personal growth related to that. Um, but I don't, I don't think that's something that they necessarily always notice in the moment. And so it's important to, uh, I think to separate It is a burden, and it is hard to handle, uh, and that's something that's worth addressing and caring about now. Alongside Hopefully the growth that comes along from that long term, um, that there's, there's this, there's this burden that they feel at the time and this something that is hard to handle for them. And yeah, definitely that theme of being held to a high standard and people seeing that they're expected to do things at church that, uh, that other kids don't, aren't expected to do, um, or expected to do them consistently in a way that other kids aren't expected to do.

Valerie Ling: 20:57

And I think it's interesting that if you think about the average age there, right, you're going to go to school and say, Oh, I'm really growing in my faith. You know, all of this serving that I'm doing at church and not being able to go to parties and not being able to go to games. Oh man, you know, I'm really growing in my Christian character. Like you just can't go to school and say that. Nobody understands that, right? Like, so I think that's an interesting thing. Which brings me to my next interesting point. I think when I put it all into the stats pot to see like, you know, what would be the biggest predictor of wellbeing? It was parenting. It was either time was parents or feeling like they were connected to parents. Um, that became like a major, major, um, thing, although I do have to say, I mean, we didn't go asking like, you know, what's your relationship with your grandparents or with your teachers or with your, with your friends, but just from the things that we asked, um, that time and that relationship with parents seems to really stand out. Um, I'm just open to the both of you, uh, what kinds of reflections came for you with the parents stuff?

Monica Jacob: 22:13

I think it's not surprising here, just, just a confirmation of what we've observed anecdotally in practice as well. Just the importance of parental understanding, the need for quality time, uh, and connection. Um, where, yes, my, my dad is busy with ministry. But at the same time, he made sure to wrap up at 6 p. m. and make it time, make it in time for bedtime and a meal together, right? Helping my parents help me connect with friends or networks of children who go through the same experiences that I do. So I think just confirming what we see in practice as well, a desire to be seen and to be known. For the unique experiences that I have, just being crucial for emotional health of, of ministry kids, of missions kids, um, which helps them navigate a crazy experience.

Valerie Ling: 23:09

Yeah, because I mean, it would be true for all kids, but I think what stood out for me is that in our survey, um, almost half said that they endorse some level of loneliness. Feeling different. So I guess your family and your parents are one of the few resources that you have to, to come back and say, I'm not doing okay, or I'm confused, or I don't like this, or this makes me angry. Or, um, you know, it's kind of like you have, you have your parents as your resource. They're, they're really, really important as you're trying to, as Thomas says, figure things out.

Monica Jacob: 23:43

Yeah, like you said, your resource and like your rock because everything around you is constantly changing. There's this sense of constant flux, but they require stability and only your parents can provide you with that stability, right? Um, so that gives you a sense of like a consistent source of comfort and security. We're changing homes, we're changing churches, we're changing communities, but there's this stability that I get from my family and from home.

Valerie Ling: 24:12

Yeah. Yeah.

Thomas Cheeseman: 24:15

I'm known to be a bit sappy every now and then. And as I, as I read the responses, uh, not looking so much at the percentages or those kind of things.

24:23

Yeah. Yeah.

Thomas Cheeseman: 24:25

You saw the, the, you know, really genuine please from some of these kids that they wish that mom, dad, both were less busy so that they could hang out with them more so they could have more family time. Um, and there's not always a direct. What do we do with this from that? But I was looking at those things and I was going, Oh, that's. That's a really genuine play from someone who, who wishes they had that time with their parents. Um, and, you know, work is busy and, and ministry life can be busy and, and lots of different work lives can be busy, but that's a obviously an important resource as we mentioned, but also just something that these kids are valuing and have been taught to value, which is fantastic. Uh, and thinking in families, but also as communities of. People, you know, the faith community or that church community or wherever they're serving, how can we support, um, that time to happen despite the need for the work to be done or the demand for other things to happen.

Valerie Ling: 25:31

It really did come across as a genuine, consistent plea. Um, and it was not for big things. It was, can we kick the ball? Um, you know, can we just do something together? Can we hang out? Can you play with me? Um, can we just chill and laugh? You know, it's, it's really doable things. Um, and like you said, Thomas, I think one of the things that I noticed consistently, like when you read the comments line after line after line, it You know, sort of, we asked them, right, what is one thing that would make ministry kids happy or, you know, what, what is it that, you know, things like less meetings came up, um, things like, you know, my parents could be at home more. Um, I think there was even one child that said if my parents could do the parenting thing. Oh, yeah. It was, it was quite consistent, wasn't it. Um, so I'm going to wrap up now by asking. Uh, both of you, three questions, because really we're doing this podcast as a way to give back, I suppose, to the faith community, to the Christians, to churches, but also to the kids themselves. Um, what's one thing you would want to say to the parents of these kids, of ministry kids? You know, what's one thing you want them to walk away with? Um, I might start with you, Mon.

Monica Jacob: 26:55

Yeah, yeah, sure. Um, I'd say, like I mentioned earlier, they require stability from you as parents. Amidst changing environments, I think fostering that sense of stability in your family unit and community relationships is important. And, to be honest, Your children just need you to be their safe space, to be heard, um, when their family is explicitly serving Jesus, giving them opportunities to talk, cry, vent, doubt, fear, and just be transparent, um, and also unplug time. I laughed when you said less meetings, because I remember my entire childhood was less meetings. It's just meetings, so a need for creating an environment that supports your child's like personal needs, social needs, um, giving them opportunities to relax and enjoy their childhood while navigating the complexities of being a missions kid and ministry kid, I think. So stability, unplugged time, and just being their safe space, as simple as that sounds. I think it's very important.

Thomas Cheeseman: 28:05

Yeah, I think it's a lot of the same message. I think, um, the reality that I've noticed as I've been doing this is and looking at the data that you as the parents have made a choice to do ministry or to go on mission, whereas largely these kids. haven't, or they haven't been the ones driving that choice. And so I think it's important to just consider having a space for letting your children to share their current concerns. What's it like being a mission kid at the moment? What's it like being a kid in ministry at the moment? What's it like at church at the moment? Being a bit different from your peers. Um, and even if that's not something that's acted on or doesn't need to necessarily change the decisions that get made, making sure that kids feel heard and they feel safe to share those concerns as they come up. And as it seems that they will based on the data over the years and years and years, potentially being in those situations.

Valerie Ling: 29:00

And Monica, if we could give one piece of encouragement or a message to the faith community, so they could be churches or they could be mission agencies. What's one thing you would like them to know from the work that we've done?

Monica Jacob: 29:17

It's our job to provide and be a protective cushion to these children. And I think awareness. A survey like this, a podcast like this, awareness just for the faith community, for members of the church to know what these children are actually going through, creating inclusive programs that address their needs, acknowledging their contributions and helping them feel heard. And I think also setting realistic expectations for these children, not holding them to a higher standard because of their parents roles is important. And providing them resources. I think, I think, uh, in the survey we saw the importance of how, um, a supportive community can buffer so much of that stress. So just being that buffer and cushion, um, and continue to have these conversations, um, and not stopping by saying, okay, here's a book that you can read, you know.

Valerie Ling: 30:16

Yeah. For it to be on an ongoing conversation. Yeah. Thomas?

Thomas Cheeseman: 30:24

Yeah, I think it's the thing that stood out to me is, and then something that was noted both as a difficulty and then as a resource when it was there, is viewing these kids as people, not just as part of their parents families. Um, they have their own maturing and growing to do, um, their age, both in their personality and their identity. And in their faith, they are not their finished product at 12. Um, even if they seem like they're holding it all together or they look like they're the perfect, They have their own maturing to do and give them the space to make, you know, make some mistakes or do some things you don't think they're going to, would be the best thing for them to do, but supporting them through that journey to figure out who they are themselves.

Valerie Ling: 31:15

Finally, we might have some ministry and mission kids listening to this podcast with their parents or even listening to it themselves. What's one thing you would want to leave them with Mon?

Monica Jacob: 31:28

Well, you are doing an incredible job navigating this seemingly crazy role, but it's okay to ask for what you need to feel happy and supported. Um, at the same time, it's okay to feel tired and overwhelmed. Um, it's normal to want more time with your family. It's normal to feel the strain of moving frequently. Um, and as cliche as it is, your feelings do matter and it's important to share them with someone that you trust. So don't hesitate to reach out to your parents, your friends, your mentors, when you need that support.

Thomas Cheeseman: 32:07

Yeah, I think it's hard for me to add anything to Monica who's had the experience, but I think something that I saw the benefit of in the data as we've been mentioning are those resources of other kids in similar situations. So, you know, particularly if you're a bit older and you're listening to this podcast, you're thinking, what can I do to feel a bit more supported? Maybe that's reaching out to those kids that you saw at that conference. And you will, you got along with, um, maybe you can reach out to them, uh, on your, you know, on your social media, your texts, give them a call and, and say, you know, you're also, um, going through a similar experience to me. Let's talk about that. Let's be friends. Let's, let's help each other out. Um, take advantage of that opportunity if it's there for you.

Valerie Ling: 32:51

Yeah, I actually really think that's important to say because sometimes when we are in ministry parents, we can really push kids to make friends with the people in our church, like really push. But there's a lot of value I've seen even in adult ministry friendships when we actually make time to make friends with people who are in ministry, who are in the same context. And so I think you're right for children. Um, to be, to be given the permission to say, yeah, it's okay to go and want to talk to someone else who's also in ministry, a ministry or missions kid, and maybe even thinking about making some of those camp and conference lists available so that kids can connect with one another. Well, thank you so much for spending time with me on the first episode. Um, I just love that we got to this point, those months and months of, you know, thinking about what we would do. Monica from you thinking about all the ways we could ask the questions and Thomas to you waiting through all the comments. Um, thank you for your service. Um, and also for being a part of, I think this, hopefully this movement that can normalize, but also vocalize the things that ministry kids go through.

Monica Jacob: 34:09

Thank you for having me. Thank you.

34:16

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