Speaking the Unspoken Experiences of Women in Ministry with Rev Dr Megan Powell du Toit

TRIGGER WARNING: Please note that this episode discusses trauma and sexual violence which some listeners may find distressing or emotionally challenging.  In Australia, If you require support, please contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 and/or 1800RESPECT.

One of the key findings in Valerie’s research was the levels of burnout and the personal violence experienced by women in ministry.  Her guest in today’s episode is Rev Dr Megan Powell du Toit – ordained Baptist minister, Publishing Manager at the Australian College of Theology and co-host of the With All Due Respect podcast.  In this candid episode,  Megan offers an intimate perspective on the myriad of challenges and biases faced by women in the ministry.  Our conversation explores the systemic issues prevalent in the religious arena, with a critical focus on the alarming underbelly of sexual assault and gender violence therein.  We explore the impact of a woman's formative history in shaping her pastoral journey. As we wrap up, we delve into the ways we can support, amplify, and uplift the voices of women in ministry. 

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Podcast Disclaimer:

Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!

Chapters

• 0:08 Women in Ministry Challenges and Well-Being
• 10:14 Trauma History interacts in Ministry
• 19:25 Sexual Violence in Ministry
• 25:33 Challenges for Women in Ministry
• 34:06 Supporting Women in Ministry

Transcript

Introduction

Valerie Ling: Welcome everybody to another episode. I've got with me Reverend Dr. Megan Powell du Toit.  Hi Megan. 

Megan Powell Du Toit: Thanks for having me on. 

Valerie Ling: I love having this conversation, particularly from an angle that I don't get to hear a lot from, which is - you’re Baptist and a female in this space. 

 Megan Powell Du Toit: Yeah. There's not as many of us generally, and then we're not as evenly spread through denominations. 

Valerie Ling: Would you mind just introducing yourself beyond your name - just some of the various things that you're involved in and your own history in ministry? 

 Megan Powell Du Toit: Yes, so I'm an ordained Baptist minister in Sydney, and I was ordained in 2004.  So getting up towards 20 years. I was in pastoral ministry for about 17 years and then I left at about seven years ago, partially what would be akin to a burnout, I suppose, but also I just had lots going on.  I've been working in academia for the Australian College of Theology and I've done other work in academia for a long time on the side.

 And I just finished my doctorate, which looked at tensions within Evangelicalism, and I have a podcast and a project with Michael Jensen.  It's called With All Due Respect, and the project's called The WADR Project. WADR. 

Valerie Ling: I love the podcast. I think it's so important, so healthy, to be able to talk about tricky, contentious subjects where we may disagree and really do it with respect and with honour for one another. So thank you so much for giving that to us. 

Women in ministry

 But for today, our conversation is about the wellbeing space for our clergy in Australia.  From your experience, is it a tough gig? Is it really a tough gig? 

Megan Powell Du Toit: Absolutely. I think that there would be aspects of it that aren't as tough as in some other fields. I know that, for instance, paramedics like ambulance and so on have a very, very, very high rate of burnout. I think perhaps you may be doing more hours if you're a CEO but yes, it is a really tough gig - I think because it's so people-oriented.

Megan Powell Du Toit: So many things depend on it. We see it as significant, and yet it's often quite unsupported. 

Valerie Ling: I was particularly keen to get your input about women in ministry. We don't hear much about what goes on for women. Is it the same? Is it different? 

Megan Powell Du Toit: Some of the pressure's the same.  I do like - I can't remember who the quote is from - but it was about Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, saying that she did the same thing but backwards in heels. So generally it's quite similar except that there's added difficulties, and probably a range of difficulties that are often not realised, that are more than just overt opposition.

There's a whole lot of unconscious bias and systemic problems and so on. So yes, there are some particular difficulties about being a woman in ministry.  I think that whatever theology that woman has, there will be particular difficulties. 

Valerie Ling: Yeah. My survey picked that up - that women were actually indicating they were more burnt out than their male counterparts.  Could you say a little bit about what you think the reasons are? You talked about systematic bias?  

Megan Powell Du Toit: So, in the Baptists, we've been ordaining women in New South Wales since 1999. Some years ago now, the denomination actually went, ‘Hang on, we don't seem to be having as good outcomes as we might expect, having made that change.  What's happening?’

So they got as many of the female ministers in a room that they could find, and talked to us about it. And that was so confronting because it really brought out things that I knew just from talking to friends.  At one point, after some discussion and they sort of came into a horrible realisation, they said, ‘Is there any woman here who hasn't experienced unfair working conditions?’

And not one hand was raised. I think a lot of it is that people think that women should be grateful for getting to serve. And a lot of women are just wanting to serve God, but that gets taken advantage of. I think we were very likely to have not been paid or to be paid under what men were paid, to not be paid for the hours that we did, to not have a title that reflected what we did as opposed to what the men's titles were, to be offered conditions that were not comparable to the men's - including things like not being permanent or not having the extra tax benefits and so on. Every possible way that a working condition could be a problem, women were experiencing it. 

Valerie Ling: Gosh. And to your knowledge, what's been done in your denomination?

Megan Powell Du Toit: I actually think it's entrenched within society. And also I think some ways that men experience being a pastor and the problems with that get amplified for women. So it's difficult to change quickly. But I do think, since then. there's been much more of an effort to more overtly put in our guidelines - Baptists, we tend to have guidelines rather than rules, because we're very independent in that sense - that express the importance of women being treated equitably. There's been much more of an effort to look out for the women, to get women onto various committees and positions of leadership and so on, in which their voices can be heard.  There's still a lot to be done. But I do think actually that was a bit of a key turning moment of realising what was happening. 

Valerie Ling: So I’ve said for years that as a female myself, it's rather intimidating entering the ministry space. In the early years, I actually was really anxious whether it was being at a conference, speaking or entering a meeting.  Do you think that that's a common experience? 

Megan Powell Du Toit: Absolutely. And I think that going into ministry spaces, it's more confronting than other spaces that women might be in, because it's often male-dominated. There are people there that don't think that you should even have a voice, or there's disagreement about what kind of leadership you should have.

I think that it's common in male-dominated areas for women to feel that. And ministry is male-dominated, but it's male-dominated in a really specific way - in all contexts, I think, but more in some that men are given more authority or have more roles open to them.

 There's different theology at play and the perception of women who talk up, who speak up, or take leadership can be quite negative. I think that's across society, but it gets laden with a spiritual aspect in ministry. And I know that people's perceptions of me as an ordained woman with a public voice are often… It's really confronting to me to find out what people think about who I am or they might meet me and then go, ‘Oh, actually, you’re just a normal person’ or that I'm quite warm and you think, ‘Well, I went into ministry’. I don’t know what kind of person you're expecting that goes into ministry. So I think that it really is a very difficult environment and, so interesting, but you get some people who say, as a woman, that you are entering into ministry because you want power, when in fact you could get a lot more power in other fields.

All the women that I know, in different places and in different contexts, only do it because they just have a really strong heart for the gospel, and just want to answer God's call in their life. 

Trauma

Valerie Ling: In my survey, I didn't actually ask for the reasons for why women might burn out, but I'm hypothesising, based on my clinical work and experience, but the incidence of trauma as well. I find that sometimes being in the ministry spaces, it can be quite a strong environment. People can be vocal when they're having conversations or having a debate over things.

You can have opinions thrown around, arguments, corrections, criticisms being thrown around. I wonder whether, with women tending to be more exposed to trauma, that also plays into it. 

 Megan Powell Du Toit: Absolutely. I do think that men often aren’t aware.  There often isn’t an understanding that a lot of the things which men think of - male pastors even - as out there and abstract and some people have [experienced], but women in ministry have experienced them. I was just reminding someone this morning that one in four women have experienced sexual violence in Australia. And so, of course, women in ministry have experienced sexual violence. They've definitely experienced sexual harassment. So even the extremely traumatic events women have been through - and that's going to affect how they respond to things, and affect when they encounter more low-key [events] that we think, ‘Why are they having such a large response?’ Well, it's because it’s triggering stuff that's happened in the past. Absolutely. 

 Valerie Ling: And I have to go and see if I can fish out a statistic, but even incidental sexual assault - being groped on the bus or walking down a street and having someone whistle at you - these are not uncommon experiences for women. We just grow up with it. 

Megan Powell Du Toit: No. I remember when Me Too happened and male Christians that I knew were like, ‘I couldn't believe so many women experienced sexual harassment’ and I couldn't believe that it wasn't 100%. I'm like, ‘Are some of women therefore not recognising it as sexual harassment?’ Because I thought it's just part and parcel of being a woman. You know, you don't report it even because you're going, ‘Well, this is just every day’.

 And unfortunately this kind of thing does exist in the ministry; whether it's from other leaders or whether it's from congregants, it's there. 

Personal violence and threat 

 Valerie Ling: Yeah. Which brings me to part of the survey that is so, so sad and the reason why I reached out to you in the first place. So the context was I had put the same sorts of questions that were asked of Australian school principals about the personal violence and threat that they were experiencing.

 And when I saw that there were women indicating that they had experienced sexual assault in the ministry space, I asked you, via Facebook, ‘Is is this what you are seeing?’ And you had some things to say about that. 

Megan Powell Du Toit: Yeah, I'm just like, yes, this is known. You know, in fact, in recent times, a lot of the Baptist female pastors and other women in ministry had reached out to the denomination and said, ‘Look, we just know anecdotally that there are a lot of - whether it’s assault or harassment or other types of gendered violence like that - that women are experiencing that in the ministry’.

And so we said, ‘Can we have some…?’ And they are, they're moving ahead on various actions on that, which is great. But yes, we were sort of putting together the stories that we'd heard and we thought, ‘This needs looking into.  This seems extraordinarily high to us’. 

Valerie Ling: How does this happen, Megan?

 Megan Powell Du Toit: I think one of the issues is it's everywhere. You know? It is in our parliament.  It is in our schools. It is everywhere in Australian culture. So ministry is not immune. 

Reluctance to report

Megan Powell Du Toit: And then I think that one of the other aspects that happens is that women don't report because they don't want to affect the ministry of the man.

 So they will put up with stuff because they don't want to hurt gospel ministry, but that of course may cause even more hurt to ministry, right? They'll often know the family and be embedded in community with that person, and so therefore they don't want to cause all of the hurt they know is going to happen there.

And then, of course, the way that we tend to put ministers, particularly male ministers, on a pedestal, that can mean it's more difficult to be believed. So I think there's a whole lot of aspects there that just make it an environment in which, unfortunately, predatory behavior can flourish.

Valerie Ling: Oh, that breaks my heart, that last sentence that you just said.  In one sense, yes, I think you're right. This happens to women in general. There's been a lot of public campaigns, a lot of things that we do in the schools now. A lot of media and social media to help us to counter that fear.

Somehow does that not then translate to ministry? How do we see that as hurting gospel ministry? It's so… It blows my mind. 

Megan Powell Du Toit: I think part of it too is that's the kind of answers that women have been getting back, whether that's explicit or implicit. But when they try and bring it up, the responses they get are like, ‘Don't get in the way of this man's ministry’.

 And I think too, one of the problems is because it's so relationally connected - which is a good thing; it's good that it's so relationally collected in churches and denominations -  but the problem is that it's not just this man that they don't really know that's done something. It's someone that everyone has been supporting in ministry and thinks is a good guy and so suddenly all those relational networks, which in other ways can be quite a good thing and really supportive, can suddenly count against the woman, particularly if there's no women in places of leadership.

And so they'll look up and go,’Well, I can't see any women in the processes that are going to deal with this’, or ‘I can't see female voices up in like the higher level governmental structure’. And so women throughout Australian society think ‘Reporting's going get me nowhere’, but how much more in this kind of situation in which we all know each other?

Loss of relational support

 Valerie Ling: One of the things that we see in our practice is that, particularly for the women, the loss of community, should they rock the boat (“rock the boat” in quotes) -  the loss of community is massive for people who are of Christian faith. Do you know what I mean? 

Megan Powell Du Toit: Yeah. I think this is, in general, an issue for pastors in that their workplace is often their place of community as well. So I think that's one of the pressures in pastoral ministry. But yes, there is this added aspect as well that you are going to lose all of that support network.

The relational support network that helps you through trauma may be lost if you bring stuff up, if you rock the boat. Absolutely. And it's not necessarily relationships you've come into as an adult. For me, I was born into the Baptists -  so, it's your life.

I mean, that's the problem with people trying to get out of cults. Not to say that we are a cult at all, but that is your life, your community, your support network, everything is there. 

Valerie Ling: I think what you've just said is insightful, that we grow up in the church as well.  So to leave a job, you don't leave your whole history. But to leave ministry, to leave church, to leave your faith family, is to really walk away from a huge part of your life, isn't it? 

Megan Powell Du Toit: Absolutely. And, you do know that that potential loss is there. So that can really give you pause, I think. And it'll be used against you as well.  That'll be brought up to the women, I think, by the men who were trying to sort of cover things up.

TRIGGER WARNING.  Nature of sexual violence in ministry

Valerie Ling: So I'll issue a trigger warning now.  If you are listening and you have any trauma history, this would be the point to pause because I'm going to ask Megan a question that might raise some things for you. Do you think that, in the ministry setting, the way sexual assault looks is different or more confusing?  Like you're not sure, was this okay? Was this not okay? 

Megan Powell Du Toit: Because it's not a strictly work environment, and because people can be friends, family friends and so on, that can blur that, which I think is why a lot of gendered violence that we see is in intimate relationships for women.

 It's not a stranger out there. But, of course, the church is full of close relationships. So there's that. Absolutely, that can blur the lines. But I also think that people…how do I put this? There's kind of a plausible deniability that people think, ‘Well, I haven't seen it happening’. Or ‘We've had all of the Billy Graham rule’ and whatever.  That kind of rule, which particularly persists in church environments, actually, I think, puts women in danger.

Because what it makes people think is there's no way it could be happening because we've got all these rules. But I would say - and other women I know would say - some of the sexual harassment that you experience occurs right in front of other people. So sometimes it's just said quietly, sometimes you’re still in view.

But they've carefully manipulated that so that some bit’s not viewed or that you can't be heard. or sometimes it's a pattern of things where there's something that's been done more privately perhaps, but then it's compounded by what's said publicly. But if you just took any individual bits of that, people would go, ‘Well, maybe not the most appropriate, but was it that bad?’

Megan Powell Du Toit: But they're not getting the whole pattern of what's occurring between these people. 

Valerie Ling: Just as you're talking, I'm reminded, I think, of my personal advocate space for kids and mission. It's a very simple sort of a thing. Because people flow in and out of personal and private spaces, there's no diary that blocks out ‘So-and-so is coming today’. Something visible where a lot of people know this is a contained appointment, contained space. People are coming in and out of your home. People are being called upon to be your babysitter. There's a kind of a false intimacy sometimes, I think, in Christian community.  You don't actually know someone, but they're in a lot of your personal and private and unseen spaces - your kitchen or in your office, which often doesn't have any windows or, a glass that you can see in through.

Megan Powell Du Toit: And even with the glass that people can see through, it might look all right from the outside, but inside that office, the man's saying something.

Predators will find their way to get round things. Absolutely. I think there's a false idea that we've got all the procedures in place, or we've got the accountability in place, so this is not going to happen. And as we've seen with some very high profile examples, absolutely, it is happening - despite those.

Female involvement in ministry

Valerie Ling: I know that you are working with some other women in your denomination to raise this issue. What are some things that you are thinking will help? 

Megan Powell Du Toit: One of the things we wanted to do - and they've started doing it and it's actually gone from our state to the whole denomination nationally - is we want to actually survey the women in our churches - that's only very much just started - to find out what their experiences in ministry are. And then from that to dig deeper and find where we need to investigate further. We've got anecdotal evidence, but we don't actually know what's happening out there and this is a significant portion of our ministry who have a very particular experience. So there's that happening. 

One of the things that we did, which has just come through in New South Wales (just went through the latest Assembly), is that we pushed for a quota of women on the two elected committees from Assembly, because it wasn't there. And even though there were all the best intentions to try and get women in those committees, often you'd have one woman or no women or so on. And we know, too, that one woman is not going to make much of a difference. There's a lot of studies that show that that woman is going to feel so isolated that she won't speak up or she won't be heard.

We were kind of saying this is not the whole. There's so much more that needs to be done. But one thing we can do is start making sure that we have women in every level of our governance. 

Valerie Ling: I think that's interesting what you say about how one woman, or even two women, it’s hard to make that difference.  I wonder if that’s some of the staff profiles we see in church, that have more than one minister in the church, where you don't tend to have a lot of women on staff. I wonder what that looks and feels like. 

 Megan Powell Du Toit: Absolutely. Often women are - well,  certainly in Baptist contexts, I don’t know so much about other contexts, and I think this has changed recently with Baptists - but often it was only when you got to the third hire that you got a woman.

It was kind of like ‘This is when we need our women.  We need a bit more diversity’. So it was on bigger teams. If people thought they had one woman, they thought they were doing well. So yes, women were often, and still are often, on staff teams where they're the only woman.

 It would be a very large team where you would get more than one woman, generally. You might have women in other roles, like administrative roles and so on, but in terms of the pastoral team.  If  you think of other Christian organisations, aid agencies would be different, I think.

But if you look at theological education, that would be very similar. 

Burnout for women in ministry

 Valerie Ling: So circling back to the issue of burnout for women in ministry, do you think it's also come down to sometimes women are hired as part-timers? Does that factor in? 

Megan Powell Du Toit: Absolutely. Like we found when we had that meeting that I was talking about before, that women were often hired part-time, but were working more hours than that.

I think generally what we do see across society - this happens for women as well - is what's called the ‘wife drought’.  Women are working, they're also doing a lot of the emotional labour, and the family and household labour and so on. I think male pastors often talk about the emotional labour that they're doing and how that leads to their burnout.

But women are already doing that in their other spaces. But yet are often quite exploited without much authority. So I think if you are the senior pastor, which is very rarely a woman, you can set more of the team ethos and so on. But if you are a woman, you're often just grateful for a job.  So you will accept anything, I think, just in order to be able to serve God. And that leaves you very vulnerable, in my mind. 

Valerie Ling: I wonder how we women contribute to the issue as well. What do we bring into the picture, Megan? 

Megan Powell Du Toit: I’ve struggled with this my whole life.  But, just as men are enculturated in certain ways on how to display masculinity, women are enculturated in certain ways about how to be feminine. You're valued for being helpful, for not saying no, for always being there for people no matter what.

So if you bring that into a pastoral role without sufficient formation, which teaches you about boundaries and so on, then as a woman, you're really going to struggle with that. I think often, too, it's the women in our churches that have come in from a side route, and so they don't necessarily have all that formative and mentoring kind of background which has helped them put in place those boundaries and so on.

Formation and training

 Valerie Ling: Oh, that's fascinating. Can you say a bit more about that? You're saying that for women, our formation history even is... 

 Megan Powell Du Toit: Absolutely. I've had male ministers talk to me about, ‘I've got this woman on my staff and I'm trying to work out how to deal with her and whatever’, and I've been like, ‘Well, what's her training?’

There are all sort of things that I know in theological education that we try and put there - with varying success - but we do try and put there, as we train people for the ministry. But quite often women haven't had that pathway. Either they’ve got no theological training whatsoever, which includes ministerial training, or they've done so in a way which hasn't gone on the same pathway, that hasn't had the same requirements for all of that kind of formational area. 

Valerie Ling: What contributes to that? 

 Megan Powell Du Toit: Partly, I think that women often go into training without thinking ‘I'm going to go into pastoral ministry’.

 So it comes on them unawares. I think women are often put into roles like children's ministry or women's ministry or so on, and the perception out there, for some reason, is that doesn't require as much training and formation. Now, I think that's a bit ridiculous. I think any pastoral role should require a high level of training and education and so on.

But we've tended to say ‘These kind of roles, where there's lots of teaching involved, require that.  If the person's not doing that, then we don't need as much of that background of equipping and training’.  And it's just not the case. Sometimes I've looked at the kind of equipping that people see as sufficient for doing women's ministry, for instance. And, it really doesn't take into account the difficulties of the pastoral role and how people have to be equipped for it.

Valerie Ling: I resonate with that, and also because we see other professions.  It's a very similar issue for teachers’ aides, for example - women who return to the workforce to be carers. They haven't had the same level of professional investment, intentional training and development and mentoring. And so they're often called in to provide aid and help and skills without the rest of the professional formation, like Mental Health First Aid, for example. Or knowing how to be psychologically safe in your workplace. That's not an uncommon scenario. 

 Megan Powell Du Toit: And I know what I've been required to do, because I'm ordained, coming up to work in the accreditation process, what I'm required to do on a continuing basis for my accreditation.

There's a lot there that these women are not… It's not like they're choosing not to have it, it's just not being made available to them, or they're not realising that it's a really important and significant part of their formation for ministry. 

Valerie Ling: If I reflect on my own journey, I don't have any theological training - quite frankly, because I couldn't access it.  I had little babies, I was working a job to contribute to the family income and things like that. And, then by the time you get - I'm almost 50 now - it's hard to then think, ‘I've only got so much more years and so much energy, where else can I invest?’ And younger children apparently still need their mums.

Megan Powell Du Toit: Yes. I’m in theological education spaces, so I've said this a lot of times: systems are slow to change. But I think we need a lot more flexibility in how we equip women, that takes account of the fact that they will have spaces out of the workplace, that they will be juggling more.

You know, we know that women come to pastoral ministry or come to further theological education later than men do in life. And they're carrying a lot more at that time. So we need to look at what we've got there and go, ‘How do we make this flexible enough and accessible enough for women in the spaces that they are in?’

And there's all sorts of ways we can do that, but I don't think there's a lot of intentionality about it. 

Valerie Ling: Megan, just what you said there, I think it goes to lifespan development as well. As women progress in their different seasons of life, they take on more caring roles because they've got aging parents, they've got sibling relationships that they're often the one that they're trying to manage and juggle. And for women who are in their fifties, we also have a hormonal change; our mental health goes into different flux. So I'm struck by what you said, as how much more intentional we have to be with our women in integrating what they go through in their life and some of these things people genuinely want to keep doing - caring for their parents and having their kids on their radar.  Well, you can't switch those things off.

Clergy considering resignation

 Megan Powell Du Toit: Absolutely. One of the issues - and I think this applies to men as well, but particularly for women - I think one of our issues has been contributing to burnout is that the minister has been meant to put their ministry above everything else and families have suffered.

And I think that definitely puts women off because women realise, ‘Actually no, that's a significant part. That's my ministry as well. I'm doing that for God as well. And that this is a significant part of me as a person’. And I actually think those aspects of ourselves actually enrich our ministry.

But that's really a change that we need to have in terms of our understanding of ministry, I think, overall. But yes, it has particular impact for women. 

Valerie Ling: So the top three reasons the people who did my survey gave for quitting the ministry: loneliness, my family suffers and then work stress. Now, I did some subsequent Mickey Mouse follow up statistics… 

 Megan Powell Du Toit: ‘Needs further research’, right?  That’s what we say.

 Valerie Ling: …on denominational differences and [there was] a smidgen of a difference in the Baptists in that they weren't saying as much that they would quit because of loneliness. And I wanted to ask you: what are you guys doing about the loneliness bit?

Megan Powell Du Toit: Yeah.  So I'm interested in that and I agree with you - it probably needs further following up, doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, one thing that. I wondered, have you managed to sort of separate that by gender? Because I feel like you probably had more women in the Baptist cohort.

Valerie Ling: Yeah, that's a good point. I will go and have a look at that. The answer is, I don't know.

Megan Powell Du Toit: Because we know that men suffer more from loneliness than women. So I'm just wondering whether having more women in your Baptist cohort may affect it? So I'm interested to know. That's just my sort of research brain there.

Valerie Ling: Anyone listening, this is a great research project for you to take up. 

Renewal retreat groups

Megan Powell Du Toit: Yes. I wouldn't want to refine too much on it, because I think you're right. It's an interesting little statistical thing there that needs more work. But one thing I do know, that we do do is that we have had, for a long time now, these things called renewal retreat groups, which are getting cohorts together that go on a three-year journey.

We have male ones and female ones, And you get very, very connected and people are encouraged into that as soon as they go into ministry, as they're leaving college. And I've facilitated those groups. I've been in them on and off. It's been really interesting to see the male ministers just learn how to emotionally connect with each other and to have those emotional deep conversations with each other.

It's been extraordinary for them. I think for the female ministers, we thought this is more of a formalised way of doing what we tend to do anyway. But still recognising that you need support from people who are going through the situation like you, that understand your context and that we can be there for each other - that's been really significant, I think, and it's been something that's been encouraged from the denomination.  It’s been something that's really intentionally been put out there - definitely in New South Wales, but I think Victoria does it. And Churches of Christ have also been quite heavily involved and we've done it with them as well.

So I think that that's been a long-term recognition of ‘that is an issue and we need to help pastors with it’. 

Valerie Ling: And how do you feel about attending these things? You look forward to it? You can't wait to hang out with one another? 

Megan Powell Du Toit: You know what, I’ve probably every year gone, ‘I didn't have time to do this’.  And I'm one of the people facilitating it, usually. So that's interesting. I'm going, ‘Yes, we're all going!’ And because it's usually three days or something out of your [calendar] and you are always very busy in ministry and every time I've come back and gone, ‘Ugh, I really need to do that’.

And I think part of it is because often people would come out of that and they'd make some decisions, really significant decisions about their ministry or about the next step in their vocation or so on, because they just usually were just so busy going through the motions and doing all the things that needed to be done.

And it forces you to go out to talk to other people about it, to pray and so on. And you need to do that. You really do need to take space out. So that was very crucial. Sometimes ministers wouldn't want to do it because you never have time, but you've got to make time. 

Advice for women in ministry

 Valerie Ling: So if someone who's in ministry was listening to our conversation today, what's one thing you would love for them to walk away with - to make a shift or to think about - that you think would be really beneficial for them? 

Megan Powell Du Toit: Gosh, one thing is really hard.  Can I say two? Aimed at two different cohorts? So I think I'd say for all women, if you are doing this for God, then trust in God and don't worry so much about what people are thinking about you. I really saw a change in my ministry after I went through a major time of depression and came out of it. But this made me kind of go, ‘You know what? I just need to serve God. And sometimes that means saying the difficult things and uncomfortable things’. And so I think, as a woman, just kind of going: part of my service to God is to bring up things, is to be that voice.

 So that's a challenge, I think particularly for women who are further on.  For women who are just starting out, I would say - and people like me need to make this easier for you - but do go out there and try and find training and knock on doors and make them see the gaps that people need to provide training for and what you need. Don't be afraid to ask for things that you need. I think often, as women, we think, ‘If I ask for something I need, then I'll seem like a trouble’. But look, we all needed a ministry. 

Advice for congregations

Valerie Ling: Oh, totally agree with that. And if a whole church was listening to this and going, ‘How can we reflect on our own behavior and how we can support our people in ministry?’

 And I'm happy for you to comment about our women in ministry as well. What would you want to say to them? 

 Megan Powell Du Toit: Well, I guess firstly, women in ministry - I think we've got to value them. You know, if 60% of the people in our churches are women, then women in ministry are so valuable for the growth and health of our churches and we need to show them they're valued in all sorts of ways - fair working conditions being one of them.

 But I think, if ministry often is unsung, women in ministry are very much underappreciated. So there's that. I think, in general, it's actually better for you as a church in the long run if you have ministers who are living well-balanced lives - if you have ministers that have relationships that support them, if you have ministers that are very invested in their families - this is actually good for you.

 It's not a loss to you. You should do that because it's actually to your benefit and to the whole church's benefit to have healthy people in ministry. 

Advice for denominational leaders

Valerie Ling: And finally, if we have policy makers, the decision-makers at the denominational level or at the training level, what's one thing you'd like them to think about?

 Megan Powell Du Toit: I actually think they need to have intentional plans. They need to sit down with the women in theological education, in ministry, in all sorts of different sectors of ministry and say, ‘What can we do?’ And form an intentional plan. Things will not change unless you have that kind of intentionality and put up timeframes and put out actual written-down goals of what you want to do and so on.

Conclusion

 Valerie Ling: Well, Reverend Dr. Megan Powell Du Toit, thank you so much for your time today. It's been such a joy. I'm energised for the rest of the day. I hope all of you who listening feel energised as well. Thank you for your time today. 

Megan Powell Du Toit: Thank you for looking into it. That's a real blessing to the church.