Clergy Wellbeing Down Under

Transforming the Narrative on Ministry Formation with Professor Donald Guthrie

• Valerie Ling • Season 1 • Episode 3

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Today, we're joined by Professor Donald Guthrie.  Professor Donald Guthrie teaches at Trinity International University, and is the co-author of Resilient Ministry: What Pastors Told us about Surviving and Thriving, a book based on a five-year intensive research project on the frontlines of pastoral ministry.  In this episode, he shares with Valerie his insights on social media conflict, the dangers of isolation, what helps clergy spouses flourish, the need for spiritual and emotional formation, and the value of professional and peer support.


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Reflection Questions:

  • Reflect on your current levels of physical, emotional, spiritual and mental health.  Which areas are most in need of restoration?
  • Consider your attitude towards, and involvement with, social media.  Are you demonstrating a ‘winsome witness’ and ‘gospel savvy’?
  • Who would you consider to be your closest friends?  What’s your level of connection with them?
  • If you’re married, how would you respond to the statements: ‘I have friends’, ‘My spouse has friends’, ‘We have friends?’
  • If you’re married, what is your spouse’s involvement with church?  How do they feel about it?
  • What professional supports, if any, do you have in place? Are there any additional ones you’d like to arrange?  What is your response to the idea of professional counselling as a preventative measure?
  • Do you have any ‘similar others’ in your life?  Is there anyone who could fit that role for you, and vice versa?
  • Have you fallen into the trap of confusing your identity with your role?  How does that reveal itself?  What gospel truths might you need to preach to yourself?



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Podcast Disclaimer:

Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!

Valerie Ling:

Hey, it's Valerie Ling. I'm a Clinical Psychologist and I'm your host for the Clergy Well-Being Down Under podcast. I'm looking forward to interviewing an expert today to take you through my findings from my research where I asked 200 pastors down under how they were doing. Don't forget to subscribe, like and share. Buckle up and here we go. It's so lovely here to have you hear today, what is your official title, Donald?

Donald Guthrie:

Oh, I'm just a professor.

Valerie Ling:

Professor Donald Guthrie. Yes. Tell us a little bit about you, your role and some of the things that you have been working on.

Donald Guthrie:

I've been in theological education now for many decades as a administrator and as a professor, higher education more broadly, for even longer than that got interested in this area of research years ago through a Lilly Endowment grant at my previous institution where we studied pastoral well-being, and that's led to many more years of interest in the topic and many more years of study. So that's the kind of the short of it. How did I get here? But how did I get here into this topic over these years?

Valerie Ling:

And the book is Resilient Ministry. What pastors told us about surviving and thriving? You were brought out here, probably 2018. Would that be right to Australia? I

Donald Guthrie:

think so.

Valerie Ling:

And it was, and still is, one of the main books that circulates around here when we think about this issue. What piqued your interest to study this area?

Donald Guthrie:

Well, we had my colleagues and I, that is, we had been alerted to some preliminary research that the foundation had done, the Lilly Endowment had done, about local church and clergy well-being and not well-being, basically, and then they invited theological institutions to kind of join them in doing some study and then sharing results with everyone, which, as far as anyone knew, it was the first time that it happened in the States on such a wide scale. We had already observed some of these things in our own institution and with our own, both our own students and our own grads, so it was a really good, it was a good timing opportunity for us then to kind of catch this wave of research, both that we wanted to do but also with colleagues from around the country here in the US.

Valerie Ling:

When we look at the state of clergy health and well-being in the US, what does that look like?

Donald Guthrie:

It's a mixed bag, I think right now, On the one hand, just at a high level we probably know more now than we've ever known in history.

Donald Guthrie:

So much money has gone into research, so many different studies have been done and more are being done all the time. So if we ever had an excuse, we are without excuse now, as far as not just knowledge, but the findings are a bit mixed. And that was before COVID, let alone post COVID-ish, I guess we could say now. So the big picture on a large scale, with some of the larger studies have been done, is that clergy enjoy the work, but the work itself is really almost literally harmful to their health for many of them. So it's not that they don't enjoy the work they do, but the work that they're doing is at such a volume and such a velocity that it's really leading to poor health, not just poor mental health but poor physical health. So I guess that's the headline, that's what I mean when I say it's a mixed bag. There's satisfaction in the work, but there's kind of danger in the work too.

Valerie Ling:

That definitely reflects some of the Australian research that we have. Work engagement or work satisfaction or ministry satisfaction is not really the whole issue and certainly reflects our clinical picture as well. I've often said that in our practice I've never seen a minister that says they hate ministry or what they do or they've lost their zeal for Jesus.

Donald Guthrie:

Right, and that's what our studies are finding too. It's not the engagement with people, it's not the preparation, it's not a lot of things. But I was interested to see one of your findings, which I'm sure we'll talk about some more, about the abusive side of the whole work with clergy and how much they just endure. That's very consistent with what we find out here, that the reason why people leave vocational ministry is because of unresolved interpersonal conflict. Basically that's what drives them away. They sort of literally just can't take it anymore.

Valerie Ling:

Yes, Donald, those questions were a last minute throw in when I considered that we have been tracking the well-being of Australian school principals and actually noticing that the levels of toxic conflict to the point of personal violence or personal experienced violence has been on the increase and I thought, well, let's just ask our pastors. I actually wonder whether we just don't know how to define conflict in church. So you know, if you look at the questions that I was asking as a psychologist, those are toxic levels of conflict. You're enduring that every day and multiple levels of conflict. So you know, feeling like you're being bullied, feeling like you're being teased, feeling like you're the target of gossip and slander and constantly embroiled in conflict and quarrel. If you're actually in that level of conflict every day and it's part of your work and you're from a psychologist looking at any vocation or any job, that's actually unsustainable. But why do we let it happen or how does it get to that level in churches, do you think?

Donald Guthrie:

Well, I think what you said there at the beginning is a clue. There doesn't seem to be much from the literature. There doesn't seem to be much insight into, not necessarily how to prevent conflict, but just how to cope, how to interact in a way where something as mundane as conversation is peaceful, civil, let alone generative, and productive and fruitful. Many pastors would settle if it was just peaceful and let alone if it went anywhere or did anything. My observation is there's a little bit more attention being paid to that particular thing now because of the research that keeps seeming to indicate, like I said, this unresolved inner personal conflict piece being the big rock that seems to get in people's way. So it looks like we're zooming in on that piece to see not just what is but what could be done about it, how to address it, how to provide some, maybe some extra training, some extra coaching. I think that's where we're at right now.

Valerie Ling:

And do you think that it's at the level of merely not merely, but mainly coaching our pastors? What about congregational life and congregational attitudes? So one of my interests is in the leadership followership aspect.

Donald Guthrie:

Yes.

Valerie Ling:

And then conservationally. For me it almost seems like followership really deteriorates once we're in the church setting. As a psychologist, we see all kinds of professions in the burnout space that they don't endure this type of level of almost ungloved fights that happen in the church. What are your thoughts about what happens in congregational thinking in their lives?

Donald Guthrie:

Yes, and, like you said, on a not perhaps a constant rate, but a consistent rate which obviously is just bound to where you are and where you're down. Yeah, that's another thing that we're all taking a hard look at is the civility challenge beyond the pastor. You might say, how do we help other ministry leaders become both aware and become more adept to have the pastors back, and vice versa? How do we help the folk in the congregations learn how to kind of undo what they've learned, how to do on social media, for example, and not just bring all that toxicity into the church, which we see happening, unfortunately, with pretty much regularity here? So we're trying to address those things. There's a number of researchers getting after that. On a broader scale, I think it's just starting to be applied and looked at, though in more of the local church context here.

Valerie Ling:

What comes out of that research? In that you know that, or I know, or I see that when we interact in social media the anonymity, the fact that nobody can see you you can sort of you know, blast someone and run. How is it that that approach to relating and conflict management can still exist in a church, when we do see one another, when you see your pastor presumably maybe not, you love your pastor but I wouldn't necessarily see that same level of interacting on social media, for example at my workplace or at other workplaces. Do you know what I mean?

Donald Guthrie:

Yeah, Well, I think pastors are playing catch up, I mean as thinking of them as a people group when it comes to not just harnessing social media to make announcements and to post sermons and to do the things they've done now for a while, relatively speaking, but how to engage constructively with a sort of a winsome witness.

Donald Guthrie:

I mean, that's a huge challenge. Right now. Some are taking it up, but we've become so socialized, like you said, to just blasting away. It's just a lament. For me personally, it's like how in the world can we treat people like this online, let alone in person? It seems to bleed back in some yeah back into our daily lives, not just our online lives. We've noticed.

Valerie Ling:

I love that phrase winsome witness. When I go about talking about what I do one of the things that I get asked and I haven't had any form of theological studies I'll ask you the question but what about the apostle Paul? Was he really that winsome? Did he? Was burnout an issue for him? There's all kinds of conflict in the early church. Surely we should just toughen it up and just keep going.

Donald Guthrie:

Yeah, I guess I have another phrase that I use often when I talk to pastors especially, and that's gospel savvy. It's the wisest serpents, generalist doves, as Jesus said. It's a sense of neither being costically cynical nor hopelessly naive, to avoid those two extremes but to cultivate this sort of Christ-like presence that, of course, only the Lord Jesus was the only person who was never anxious with the person or group. He's the only one who's ever been fully present in those conversations. He's the only one who was never had to second guess himself. Oh, I should have said that. I shouldn't have said that like we do all the time.

Donald Guthrie:

But there's a lot to learn from him when you observe him in conversation and when you observe the Apostle Paul, for example, in when he's talking in Athens in Acts 17,.

Donald Guthrie:

I mean he's very savagely engaging that group and commending them for their worship of the unknown God. I mean sort of a creational apologetic to go at the human level with what he can commend on the way to bearing witness to the God who made everything, and then, kind of taking it from there, you get a master class, obviously in the book of Acts about contextual witness bearing, because here it's a little bit more of this and here it's a little bit more of that, but it's always the gospel. It's just emphasized a little bit more of this and a little bit more of this here. Like I would say, of course it's a master class, it's a scripture, but I think there's a lot to learn there that's so timeless and timely for us these days, in this realm of neither heaving in to be okay, just forget about it, I'm going to blast away too, or just throwing up our hands and saying I'm not going to have anything to do with it and go away.

Donald Guthrie:

Or being naive to say it's okay.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah, love that. So let me take us through now, and you might have some things that jumped out at you when you looked at what I found. What would be the best Sure go ahead here we go.

Valerie Ling:

So top three reasons for well. First of all, up to 35% of pastors have seriously thought of quitting the ministry in the last 12 months, and these are the ones that haven't quit in the middle of the pandemic. Top three reasons my family suffers, I feel lonely and isolated, and the immense stress of the job, which, interestingly, if you look at those numbers, over 75% said my family suffers, I feel lonely and isolated, but 49% really said it was the stress of the job. How does that reflect what you are experiencing or what your research or what findings are coming out in the US?

Donald Guthrie:

Yeah, in no particular order. I can think about the family issue, for example, but that relates in our research. That relates actually to the isolation issue, both personal isolation but maybe even more pronounced when the clergy person is married, there's couple isolation. So in our most recent survey we ask a really simple, really sort of syllogism. We said, okay, respond to the following I have friends, my spouse has friends and we have friends. Wow.

Donald Guthrie:

So they could answer. I mean they could say yes, yes, no, no, no, whatever, whatever combination. Okay, well, it was usually. Usually they said yes, I have some friends. Yes, my spouse has some friends. No, we don't have friends. Wow, that was the most often registered response. There was more no. It's already hard to have couple friends when you're a couple, I mean those folks who are in a relationship with someone. It's hard to do that anyway, let alone when you're a clergy couple. I mean you just increased the degree of difficulty, times or whatever. So that was something we were wondering about. But our data, yeah, that's what it looks like. So those two are sort of related, I guess. And then I think the work itself that goes back to the first thing we were talking about from this larger study that was done at Notre Dame about the work itself is satisfying, but it's so overwhelming it's not very healthy. I mean, that's sort of the one, two, three. Yeah.

Donald Guthrie:

So that's pretty sounds pretty consistent to me. I guess is what I would say in response.

Valerie Ling:

Well, but the apostle Paul, I mean, he probably didn't have any couple friends and his work stress was probably huge. So what's our problem, Donald?

Donald Guthrie:

Well, our problem is, we're human beings For whom isolation is deadly, In fact. In fact, one of our primary findings in our most recent our, my colleagues and my most recent research is that we call ministry tensions, and the first big one is is isolation and connection, and if you're isolated, you basically die might die slowly, but you die and if you're connected, you live. Now, as you know, every single study we're ever going to do is going to have, is going to find that out.

Donald Guthrie:

It's going to find that out for older folks and younger folks and everybody in between.

Valerie Ling:

Absolutely.

Donald Guthrie:

But they did tell us that and they gave us reasons why and they illustrated it in our focus groups and said when I am connected I am alive. When I'm connected in formal, non-formal, informal ways, you know, all up and down in relationships it didn't have to be close confidant friends. It just was a sense of connection both sort of in the family and then with confidants, and then with allies, and then out even to the congregation and then beyond the congregation and the community. We had so many pastors tell us that some of their closest friends were not just outside their church but they weren't even Christians. They said that they it was their neighbor or it was someone in a workout place or a social club that they belong to, that they had to kind of get out all the way outside the system.

Donald Guthrie:

And that's where they found personal relationships and connections and couple relationships and connections. I thought that was very telling. At least that was reflected in our most recent research here.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah, as we are talking, I'm just reflecting on how I actually think, from what we know in psychology at the moment, that there are two things that are endemic across human beings, regardless of what clinical presentations they come emotional exhaustion and loneliness, and I think those two things are actually quite connected, and so it's almost like okay, you've got a baseline.

Valerie Ling:

Most people in the world feel emotionally exhausted and lonely for lots of reasons. Society has changed, the way we communicate has changed, the way we do work has changed. And then you put a vocational hazard, which is being in ministry, which further alienates and isolates you. I'm curious about the couple loneliness. I've not actually thought about this. What are the consequences of that Meaning that they're so isolated, not just individually, but what would be the outcomes of couples themselves not having a couple friends?

Donald Guthrie:

Yeah, a couple things there. Well, I was going to say, and on top of everything you just said, there was this small pandemic that went around the world.

Donald Guthrie:

Yes, they exacerbated and accelerated all this, of course. Well, the couple thing. One of the things that they told us was the spouse. I'll put it this way the spouse who is flourishing Okay, the clergy spouse who is flourishing is flourishing because they have friends outside the church and they work outside the church. I'm sorry they work outside the home. I'm sorry they have friends outside the church and they work outside the home. If you have those two things pretty strong correlation with, they will be flourishing. That does not mean that they're not active in the church.

Donald Guthrie:

It doesn't mean they have enemy, it doesn't mean any of that. It's just that those two things pop up all over the place. But, like I said earlier, if it comes down to where are our friends and who are friends, they're still pretty lonely as couples, and when they aren't lonely it's usually because the spouse has some outside activities. They're not just bound to the church but they're connected in some ways to broader groups of people.

Valerie Ling:

Well, donald, this is dangerous findings, because one of the more I suppose what we would assume is that couples would be doing ministry together, that very often the spouse doesn't have work outside of the home. You know you are in community, your friends are your church. How does that relate, then, to how we would typically approach doing ministry as a couple?

Donald Guthrie:

I think it's tipped. I think the two for assumption is gone, whether that was ever spoken or unspoken. When I say what I just said at pastor couple retreats, which we do, quite a few of the spouses just want to say, okay, we're just going to stop everything and talk about this now for a while. So everybody just get comfortable, because they can't believe we've said this out loud and they perceive it's even half of a safe space to talk about it. They want to talk about it. Wow, they just have not been able to. They just have not found where they can talk about this out loud. I think they're so desperate for connection.

Valerie Ling:

Yes.

Donald Guthrie:

They've gone, they've indicated they've gone looking They've. I mean they're happily married. I mean that's the other thing about this Interesting. The marriage is strong. They've indicated self reporting but they've indicated we're good together. We just we just need friends, we just need connections. And the spouses said I can't wait. Yeah. I need help, I can't, I can't exist this way. At least the pastor has some other, probably pastor friends. Yeah.

Donald Guthrie:

Spouse. They're not waiting around anymore and they're not, they're not allowing, in a sense they're not allowing the church to say this is not a twofer, you don't get me because you got the pastor. Yeah, I think it's a big two and it's, it's becoming. I would, I would observe. Now, I don't, I can't trace this demographically, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was also generational. That wouldn't surprise me at all, and by generational I'm I'm thinking maybe it's certainly if I had to put an age on a 40 and younger, and it might be, it might be a little older than that. Now I would say no way, don't assume, if you get me, you get the spouse.

Valerie Ling:

Wow, stay tuned on that, on that front, yeah, yeah, it's pretty pronounced.

Donald Guthrie:

I mean it's, it's not, it's no longer sort of a whisper, I would say it's a shout.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah, I'll I. I wonder what that, what the level of thinking?

Donald Guthrie:

in.

Valerie Ling:

Australia is. I'd be curious. I think one of the things we do need to do is we need to do exactly the same things that we're doing with our clergy and ask actually ask the kids and ask spouses and what's happening in their world. I think we'll get a lot of information there.

Donald Guthrie:

I really agree. We we are just beginning in the States to get to that layer. Yeah. Well, those two layers of spouse and family, we know a little bit, but not, not, not, not nearly enough.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Donald Guthrie:

Especially on scale. We need way more, way more data there.

Valerie Ling:

This is the midpoint break for the podcast. If you want to put a pause and walk away and come back with it, make sure you do check out the description for all the various downloads that we have for you, including my full report, research and reflections. You might also want to remember to like, share and subscribe. So stop now or keep going. Let's talk now about the other element which I found, which was one of the things that I really wanted to add or even raise in the conversation, because, as a psychologist, when we are seeing our ministers, we are noticing that a sense of defectiveness and shame, having really high standards and perfectionism, but the block gaining insight into that is really not attending to their own emotional life. So we're quick to go. This is a problem. I'll reflect and think about this and then figure out what is the strategy to solve this problem.

Valerie Ling:

But me as a human being, and how I'm feeling and the insight that I'm gaining from my reactions and maybe and the reactions of others, seems to be missing Now that surface acting. I found a correlation with burnout. I also found a correlation with destructive leadership patterns which, in my survey, if we look at the range of being unhelpful, inappropriate to abusive I was really looking at unhelpful. Once it gets to the point of forceful leadership, you're getting angry, you're blaming, you're using punishing tactics that was linked to burnout as well as to surface acting emotions. What are your thoughts and reflections on that?

Donald Guthrie:

Yeah, I thought that was an interesting finding in your research. I definitely see some parallels here too to ours in the States. There are a couple of maybe different ways in terms of the influencers. One would be Our folks would report they may not have much self-awareness, which would hopefully lead to self-care, so they care more about others than themselves. But that's nothing new. I mean, helping helpers has been around for a long time. You know that that's what you do.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah, that's foundational to how Ben out came about, isn't it how it?

Donald Guthrie:

was, it is yeah.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah.

Donald Guthrie:

So that keeps popping up, I would say yeah. The interesting thing would be there's an increased awareness and interest in attending to the needs of the other, which is fairly new. I mean, it's actually a positive trend. There's just not knowledge or skill. So there's awareness and willingness but not knowledge or skill, so it's lagging on the I'd love to do that and I think it's important, but I don't know how to start. I don't know what to do and I don't even know how to process that myself. Whoever I am, I don't know why I'm just reading the Bible and I think it's important, so I should probably get outside my comfort zone, my relational comfort zone and so forth. So there's again. It's a bit of a mixed bag as far as interest, willingness, lack. It just looks to me like it's a real jumble right now of trying to sort this out in a way where they see the connectivity that their own abiding in Christ can bring them, even as they minister outwardly.

Valerie Ling:

Is that a formation issue or is that you need to go and learn and practice and do it issue?

Donald Guthrie:

Well, our folks who are trained formally, say in Bible colleges or seminaries or some place in formal education, have I can say this either way, but I'll say increasingly lacked discipleship in their own lives before they come to get formally trained. So that's an opportunity and a problem.

Valerie Ling:

How would you define that discipleship?

Donald Guthrie:

Well, have they had experience, exposure, participation, let alone contribution experience in a local church? I mean, it's just that basic level. Have they had anybody in their lives as spiritual mentors? Have they been in groups of peers and or generational mix of folk? So you'd have a variety of spiritually mature, spiritually mature all jumbled together that would be obviously part of the church, but not in a local church. They would be perhaps a group over here, a Bible study here.

Donald Guthrie:

Do you, or fewer of them, have all three of those, maybe not even one, as they come to get formally trained? So we cannot assume not only we've not been able to assume a basic level of Bible knowledge for a while, but now you cannot assume even any sort of level of depth of maturity in Christ, understanding of the local church, anything like that. So our challenge is to pay attention to formation, to your point, more and more and more, and hold hands, join hands with the local churches even around us here I mean in my context as well as our other sister schools and other churches to kind of fill that vacuum and not put the two against each other, not put the formal education, training and the local church preparation and formation, but more and more. Combine those two, because it's now desperately needed.

Valerie Ling:

Right. So this makes me think of what we experienced in our industry psychologists. We are actually finding very similarly. Early career psychologists really haven't experienced relationships themselves. They've been highly academic. They're usually clever and helpful people, but being exposed to unpacking your own brokenness, being exposed to brokenness, many of our early career psychologists actually feel intimidated by some of the clinical issues we see domestic violence, substance abuse, children. It causes them to actually attrition from our profession. So I'm wondering there's the issue of maybe spiritual formation, but is there something about our emotional formation as well? Coming into ministry, just interacting in that space? What are your thoughts?

Donald Guthrie:

Yeah for sure. Part of a bigger story going on here, as well, as what I understand around the world, is the increasing levels of pretty significant mental health struggles, and we've certainly experienced that, I know. Just boiling it down to our context here, just you name it yeah, it's just overwhelming, it's overwhelming our system. I just personally, I feel like I just need to go back to school and get a counseling degree these days Because of the level of challenge with just mental health issues that our folk have, and it's not just a few, but it's more. And it's not just more, but it's more depth of their issues, more of their challenges. So that's, I'd say that's a developing story that we're all trying to figure out how to address, how to help, how to come alongside.

Donald Guthrie:

The days are long gone when I can just deliver content and say, okay, I'm finished, I did my job. If you're in theological education here, that's just our movement I would say happily is moving more and more towards, like I said earlier, this arm in arm with the church, so that we accept some more responsibility and then act on the responsibility about formation, not just information and skill building. That is definitely the movement, that is definitely the conversation, that's definitely the way our standards of accreditation have moved just the last few years. So we're all still getting used to the shift. I would say it's a healthy shift. But you're asking a lot of folks who are both trained in a particular way to say, okay, now we're going to have to add to this Even more. That's a big lift, that's a big ask. It speaks to the work stress. It speaks really to the work stress.

Valerie Ling:

The complexity of being in a pastor has grown, inclusive of the mental health burden that comes with the role.

Valerie Ling:

Yes, here is about your thoughts about emotional awareness. So one of the things that my study and probably other studies have found is that pastors can believe that they're self-reflective, but the reflection doesn't necessarily lead to insight, particularly self-insight as to what does this tell me about me? How does this inform my strong reactions and doesn't necessarily build insight into, and why would that person have reacted that way? Are you finding similar things self-reflection to self-insight, emotional awareness?

Donald Guthrie:

I would say yes and no again. So, yes, increased self-awareness, but not necessarily yet towards healthy application of the insight that would be gained. So, in other words, there's a middle stopping place where, I would say, again positively, more are willing to and are seeking professional counseling as a result of this raised awareness. So they realize part of their, whether it just be coping with some things they need to cope with, dealing with things they need to deal with, all the way to pretty substantial healing needed. They need help, and they're increasingly willing to ask for the help, which, again, I think is a very positive development. I think it's just maybe going to start turning into self-awareness, to, like you said, insight and then being able to help others. I would say, just observing myself. That's what I would hope. That would be the trajectory that the Lord would kind of lead to, but there's definitely more awareness and there's definitely more willingness to seek help.

Donald Guthrie:

It looks to me, though, like the jury is still out as far as. Okay, what would be the fruit? Because some of them might just say, okay, that means I just am out, not because they're not the older, because they're not increasing their own self-awareness and the insight that comes with that. But they just realize they can't take that pressure, they can't take the like we said earlier, the blowback or whatever it is, or they might re-engage in a way that's even healthier, stronger, more connected and so forth. I don't think we know what the answer that's going to be. I think it's too soon to say.

Valerie Ling:

In Australia there is quite a lot of conversation about putting some support roles. So we've got coaching, mentoring and now a pastoral supervision is going to become something that everybody will have. All clergy will have to do.

Donald Guthrie:

Okay.

Valerie Ling:

What are your thoughts about these formalized roles and say, okay, every pastor needs to have a mentor, a coach, a pastoral supervisor, and only seek help from a therapist if you really really need it. What are your thoughts?

Donald Guthrie:

Wow, I'd say that's a lot of structure and I would say, helpful. Structure is good overall. I mean, some fellowships and some denominations have that baked into their systems and I think their pastors do better because they have those layers of connectivity and support. The ones who don't aren't. It's pretty simple If the structure isn't there to bring support, then it's on them and that's again that's a lot to ask to sort of make up this not just a development plan but a care package and not just that. But I mean, my goodness, when did we ever help them learn how to do any of this? If we're just saying, okay, be warm and well fed off, you go, especially from our schools, I don't know how they're going to do it and they aren't. So I like the idea of the structure, but I guess I would advocate and I do advocate or professional counseling being part of the team.

Valerie Ling:

That's interesting.

Donald Guthrie:

Part of the approach Just bake it in, just assume it.

Valerie Ling:

And even if it's just for checkup.

Donald Guthrie:

I'm sorry. What'd you say?

Valerie Ling:

What would that look like, donald? What does that look like to have more professional counseling baked in?

Donald Guthrie:

Well, I think I mean I would say in my own formal education context, it's us helping our students learn how to evaluate, interview, look up, network and say this is non-negotiable the answer to who is on your team ongoing Lee is a professional counselors on your team. Just assume it and just train them that way and send them out that way so that they don't have to go through whatever they go through to get to the point where they're desperate and you have to look around and find somebody. We ought to build networks very intentionally so that we can help them with that on the front end, the pre-service end, as they go into and continue in their ministry.

Valerie Ling:

I would say You've actually given me something to think about, because this is also lacking in our profession. It used to be that psychologists were formed by having therapy while we went through our formal degree. Whether we were in distress or not, it was actually considered to be compulsory that you had to receive it, and why it was the third eye, even if you're not feeling anything, it was just opening up the landscape in the world so that as you went out and interacted with other people Am I hearing you say that it's almost like right now? I think in Australia we put the professional counseling right at the tail end. When things are starting to show signs of breaking, you're saying that let's bring it right up the front.

Donald Guthrie:

Yes, so that it's both preventative and it's sort of the, I guess, analogous to a well person visit with your doctor. I don't just go to the doctor when I feel terrible or when I need help or whatever. I go, because I go, I get a check up and I get a check in and I have a conversation. Why can't we think that way about our mental health as well? I think the stigma it's not totally gone in our context, but it's been much diminished. I would say, praise the Lord, but it still isn't. I'll go when I'm in trouble. It's still the mentality I'm like don't wait till you're in trouble.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah, I think in Australia, at least from my context, I think we've shit the doll. I used to see them. I used to see ministers come in when they're on the stretcher Right now stretcher wheel chair not quite there anymore we are seeing them more coming in when they've got a raised temperature, which is really helpful, but I'm going to spend a lot of happy time contemplating, pushing for okay.

Valerie Ling:

Well, why don't we actually just put counselling right in the beginning? Sure, so I would love to finish with your take homes for everything that we've talked about. So we've talked about the loneliness and the isolation. We've talked about the formation issues as well. We've talked about the way that the ministry work role has been structured now that it's unbearable. We've talked about levels of conflict in the church. If you had one thing that you would say to a pastor their family in the midst of all of that, what would be one thing that someone in ministry can do right now, after listening to us?

Donald Guthrie:

Yeah, this is a little bit of a different taken a little bit newer or taken. I think it's one of the most promising things I've read about in the research and it comes from a study that same study from Notre Dame, so far the largest done in the states, and it tapped into this literature called similar others, and I think it has a lot of promise. Because what did we say is part of the biggest, what's the biggest problem? Connectivity with others, just simply. Well, part of the issue is can you find those folks in your system? Oh, maybe, maybe not. You can only go so far and so deep. Well, how do you find them outside the system?

Donald Guthrie:

Well, this research indicates that maybe there's this middle way of similar others. So, for example, for a pastor, a similar other would be somebody like you. It would be somebody in the helping professions that knows enough about helping but isn't a pastor but is a social worker or a professional psychologist or an educator or a doc or a nurse or a hospice caregiver. Well, what if we said to the helping professionals you guys have enough in common that you could really help one another Because, as you all know, helping the helpers is really challenging.

Donald Guthrie:

And if each profession tries to come up with its own categories of helping their helpers, I mean, that's a good thing, and they are. But what if we cross-pollinated too? What if we said to the helpers hey, you know, why can't the helpers help the helpers even as they help others? I'm very interested in that development. I'll put it that way.

Donald Guthrie:

I think there's a lot of promise there and when I've shared that just in the last, it's been in the last little while, maybe the last year or two, when I share that with folk both in the pastorate but then also outside the pastorate just my other colleague, friends in the helping professions, they go. Oh, I think there's something to that.

Valerie Ling:

Amazing.

Donald Guthrie:

So I'm encouraged by that. I personally would like to do a little more research in that area because I think there's so much promise there. So that's like I said, that's relatively a new thing on the horizon here, but I think there's some promise. Maybe we can all think about that together.

Valerie Ling:

Really and what is one thing you would hope? A church listening. You know, if there's a pastor, there's a church, a church listening in. What one thing you'd like for them to take away that they might think about or do from listening, from this?

Donald Guthrie:

Sure, I think the local church can be a huge help to pastors and their families and obviously they need to pray for them regularly. They need to treat them as human beings. It's hard, if not impossible, for a pastor to never be the pastor at the store in the lawn mowing the grass. So being a human being is a pretty important thing to be. How can we encourage them to have a life and not just be a 24-hour, seven-day a week?

Donald Guthrie:

Your role is your identity. How can we help our congregations understand that's just not healthy. That's not healthy for anybody and it's not healthy for our pastors to confuse identity with role. So how can we come alongside and pray for and help and have a bite to eat and just do pretty mundane and everyday things with them so we can remind ourselves and the pastor that we're human beings together here. We're Christians together here, Not just this hierarchy of callings where the pastor is above and beyond and better be holier than us, and that foolishness. I think we just have to learn a new language and learn a new way of relating to those folks. This is supportive and loving and helpful and encouraging.

Valerie Ling:

And, finally, policymakers people sitting in the denominations listening to this in terms of thinking about how do we look at the work context, job design, the supports that we have. What's one thing you'd like them to walk away with?

Donald Guthrie:

Well, I think we need to work on our curriculum to make it more coherent in our formal education. I'm thinking about education first, but I think we need a lot of help making the curriculum coherent so that we don't separate the person and the skill building and the knowledge base, but bring together the no be do, because that's who we have in front of our faces as we teach and train and equip. These are whole people. Let's treat them as whole people and let's treat them as whole people all the way through the curriculum. So that's one thing I'd say the formal education folk like myself, Denominationally I think there's a real opportunity to link arms with our educational institutions. We've got to find new and creative ways to do it.

Donald Guthrie:

Some folk are advocating sort of a hospital residency model which is intriguing for theological education. Some folks are certainly trying to beef up their internship opportunities even in the midst of formal schooling. I think all those things need to continue to be tried, paid attention to, captured, reported. If anybody finds some water, share it with somebody else. I mean, I think it's all hands on deck at all the layers of the systems in which we find ourselves.

Valerie Ling:

Thank you so much for spending your time with me. It's been so rewarding and so enriching and, I think, just encouraging. Just like you said, one body in Christ, for His glory, for His kingdom, and so the word continues to be proclaimed that we are able to dialogue, so I really thank you, professor Donald Guthrie, for spending your time today.

Donald Guthrie:

A real delight to see you again. Valerie, Take care.

Valerie Ling:

Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you liked what you heard and you think others should hear it too, don't forget to like, share and subscribe. Catch you later.

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