Clergy Wellbeing Down Under

Leading Through Tough Times in Ministry with Dr Grant Bickerton

• Valerie Ling • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Ever feel like you're on the brink of burnout, especially in these pandemic-ridden times? You're not alone. On today's episode, we've got the honour of hosting Dr. Grant Bickerton, who takes a deep dive into the changing landscape of Christian ministry and how it's impacting those on the front lines. We begin by exploring the unique challenges and psychological toll the pandemic has had on Christian workers, resulting in significant loss and grief that can eventually lead to burnout.

We also dive into the murky waters of job satisfaction and wellbeing in ministry. Grant shares his views on isolation and loneliness among Christian workers and provides insights on why many are reluctant to admit they're considering leaving ministry. We also talk candidly about the complexities of family suffering as a driver for self-sacrificial roles in ministry and the critical need for measuring and addressing the causes of burnout.

Further into the episode, we confront some tough issues such as conflict, bullying, and leadership dynamics within ministry. We examine the damaging implications of workplace conflicts and potential bullying, and delve into the importance of accepting leadership and understanding the role of personal development and self-care plans.

Finally, we discuss how to best nurture and empower team members, stressing the importance of providing room for growth and risk-taking. Join us for this gripping conversation with Dr. Bickerton and learn how we can navigate through these challenging times in ministry together.

Are you a ministry leader looking for a pastoral/professional supervisor?  Perhaps you are needing some counselling support? Send me an email: valerie@effectiveserving.com.au

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Podcast Disclaimer:

Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!

Valerie Ling:

Welcome to Dr Grant Bickerton. Hi Grant.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Hi, Valerie, good to see you.

Valerie Ling:

Good to see you. It's been 10 years, this is what I figured out 10 years since we have met one another. Wow, yeah, 10 years. Could you tell us a little bit about you, your role and where you are?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah, yes, I serve with a Christian mission organization called Power to Change, formerly known as Campus Crusade for Christ, and my role with them is particularly around the development and the well-being of our missionaries. But my background is as a psychologist and, yeah, I spent some time doing my PhD research looking into particularly what role does organizational, psychological and spiritual factors play in the well-being of Christian workers so clergy, missionaries, chaplains, youth workers, all that kind of stuff and so that's been a real love of mine over the past 10 years, for sure, looking to explore how do we think about that and how can we promote that amongst people.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah, so years ago. What got you into doing that research?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah, so I've actually been serving with Power to Change all time since 1999. But very early on I saw people in ministry, not just Power to Change, friends in clergy, ministry, people overseas. I saw people not doing very well over time, not doing very well psychologically, not doing very well spiritually, and when people would leave they would leave very badly. And so my real interest was not just being involved in ministry myself, but how do we encourage one another to prevent us falling back in to struggling? So it was actually just seeing people struggling is what got me interested in that for sure.

Valerie Ling:

And 10 years on Grant, do you think the landscape has shifted? Similar issues different issues.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah, the landscape certainly has shifted. We've had a pandemic that's caused changes. Things are changing all the time, I think For the better or worse. There's just so many different factors in play. Our culture is changing, how Christian workers are perceived I think that has changed over 10, 15 years. For sure it's changed the dynamic. It's changed how people might look at a person or see them or evaluate them. I think there's a much greater recognition of struggle and what impact that has on things. With the COVID pandemic, there's a whole lot of change there which brought about a whole lot of loss and a whole lot of grief. And have we recovered from that? I'm not sure. All kinds of things actually, I think, have changed, valerie, but yeah, I don't know if I'd say for the better or worse. Actually there's just lots of different things going on.

Valerie Ling:

Now you mentioned the grief and the loss. What do you see? What is the grief and loss? Where is it coming from?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Well, I think grief in ministry is a big deal actually and not well appreciated For me. Every time there's a change, even a positive change, there's likely going to be some loss, and wherever there's loss there's going to be grief. But often maybe we don't think about it like that. So I think there can be lots of losses involved. There might be losses in terms of relationships. Things might change, relationships might change. I might lose contact with people or the relationship. I still have contacts, but it's not the same as what it was before. There's grief involved with that. I think there can be grief involved with just am I going to be OK? Things are changing around me, maybe my work environment's changed? Am I going to be OK? Or am I going to be safe? Or will this be able to go on? Or is this viable? Will I be OK? Maybe that's a bit of a loss of safety and security, relationship safety and security.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Sometimes, particularly with a pandemic, there can be a real loss of competence. I thought I was competent at this role. The role has changed or I'm being required to do different things and all of a sudden I don't feel competent anymore. The old saying promoted to my level of incompetence. Sometimes that occurs and well, there's a loss there, there's a loss of competence, and that's a very significant thing. Sometimes there's losses in terms of my mission and purpose. Maybe I had a great desire to do X, but because of Y and Z, things have changed and actually I'm no longer going to be able to do X at all. Well, there's a grief there actually. So grief can occur, I think, in a myriad of ways in ministry that might not necessarily be easily identified as that, those losses they accumulate.

Valerie Ling:

And Grant, did you pick that up 10 years ago? Was that something you looked into or has this been much more emergent as you've interacted in this space?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

It's much more emergent, definitely, although in exploring with people where some of the distress comes from, it usually is around some of those things. An accumulation of these things over time can become really quite wearing, so my energy can be drained or eroded, yeah because I think I wanted to ask you.

Valerie Ling:

10 years on, I see you really as having kickstarted the conversation around resilience in ministry, well-being in ministry burnout. And typically one sees burnout as an occupational phenomenon, being that we're not just saying to the individual toughen up or self-care or work on your individual factors. It is the intersection, isn't it? When you think about your research and the pandemic, grief and loss issues, one almost can feel like, well, what is there to do? It's a systems issue. It's not like we can reverse the pandemic, it's not like we can take away the stressors. And if the individual is possibly doing the best that they can, how do we actually view that? Do you know what I mean from the framework of an occupational phenomenon?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Great, it's a great question. I would always say that I would say burnout is a systemic issue, but when I'm burning out, it feels like a deeply personal issue. It's me I'm failing, I'm not good enough, I'm not resilient enough, or whatever the phrase is. I really affirm what you've said it is a system issue. However, I am complicit with my system, and so there are individual factors going on here, and so I think it's possible to discuss and identify what are the systemic issues and maybe what are some resources that could enable us to engage on that system level. Now, that might involve in some systemic change, and I think that is possible because we're not passive agents in our environment. We are active agents, and I know that can seem hard to hear sometimes because it's like well, I don't lead a congregation of 200. I've got 200 bosses, is how one might feel, but I think we do have agency to affect some change. That's one thing. Then there are individual issues that can actually help keep negative dynamics in place, and so we do need to have an awareness of well, what role am I playing? How am I complicit to this? What are my own background or personal factors that might be even exacerbating some of the negative impacts of the environment. So one thing I'd say is I think we can have a go at changing the environment. We're not totally passive, but there are also individual issues that we can explore as well. So it's going to be both of those things is going to be important.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

I think very rarely is it all one or all the other. However, some environments one should never have to be resilient in, some environments are abusive and so in that environment one needs to leave. So there's a few ideas around that issue about the systemic versus the individual, and the interplay is actually quite important. I must say. Sometimes I've seen organisations who in my experience most organisations want people to do well. They really do. Leaders often want their people to do well, but sometimes the provision of resources is either not understood or I'm just too exhausted to take up the extra opportunity when I really have no energy, and even giving me a positive challenge that will help and feel like a hindrance that I just can't cope with. So there's a lot of things, a lot of moving parts in this discussion. I wish it was as simple as a one solution. There's no silver bullet here. We're complicated and we're in dynamics that are very complicated and the Christian ministry environment is a complicated area.

Valerie Ling:

Well, let's go through some of my findings and see how it maps, or what you found in your research, but also in your practice, because you still continue to practice as a psychologist and you still are very much seeing ministry workers. So about 35% of my sample endorsed around 200 ministers endorsed moderate to high levels of burnout, as measured by my questions. Does that surprise you?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

No, so well, we've had this discussion before. The devil is in the details, with research and numbers, and moderate to very high. So a lot of it depends upon what measure we're using. But that does not surprise me, apart from I thought it would be even a little higher. I thought it would be higher actually. So clergy in general have higher levels of burnout than the average population, so Christian workers will have elevated levels of burnout full stop. So it depends upon what's the group we're norming those numbers on. But Christian workers often have higher levels of motivation as well, and so the strain or the stress from work usually is higher for Christian workers, because it's so important and because I'm so motivated to do it and it's infused with the divine. So, to be honest, this 35% surprise me no, apart from I thought it might be a bit higher. So I would probably say, yeah, that's probably my experience.

Valerie Ling:

Okay and about 35% seriously thought of leaving the ministry in the last 12 months.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah, I think that's definitely true. I've heard of other research floating around that definitely, post pandemic, one in three clergy are seriously leaving their role. So I would. That rings true to me, and three reasons.

Valerie Ling:

My family suffers, I feel lonely and isolated. Which were in the highest 70s, a percentage wise, because you could endorse a few of these. My family suffers, I feel lonely and isolated. Were in the high 70s and 49% indicated the immense stress of the job.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah, I thought that was really interesting. I think people who go into ministry, there's a degree of self-sacrifice to start with, so the immense stress of the job one might think, oh, that should have been higher. Oh, maybe, maybe not. Maybe that's about expectations. There is a expectation that this is going to be, that I might suffer, or something like that. The 76%. When I see my family suffering, that's a different motivational pull then to change or something. So I thought that was interesting and I would agree. When push comes to shove, I might get used to being in a dynamic where I am, yeah, a bit of a self-sacrificial servant and I can even have some theological justification, rightly or wrongly, for that. But when I see my family suffering, I often like to ask people this question if you consider your experience and what your life is like serving Jesus in your role, would you wish that for one of your most loved family members? And if I can't say yes, there's an issue there. What I'm trying to pull on is a bit of this issue. Yeah, that people who I love. I would not wish to show on anyone, but I'll take this myself and then that deserves an explanation. So what really jumped out at me was that 76%. That was very interesting for these family suffers and I would agree. I think that's a powerful motivator.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah, you lonely and isolated. That is absolutely 100% true, particularly when you're talking about your sample, which is heavily skewed from males older males, definitely I would think that's a big issue. That's a big issue full stop. What I was also interested in with that statistic, though, is that there's quite a large percent I think was like 80% of your sample was in multi-staff positions. Now I thought that was interesting. So definitely that would be true, for an individual in a sole pastoral position makes sense. What I thought was interesting about that was 75%. Well, 80% of your sample was actually in like a one to five to more than 10 staff situation. Good pickup Grant, now that's interesting.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Why is it that I can't speak to my colleagues about feeling isolated and alone? I know that it can be true. Sometimes, when I'm in ministry, I don't want to acknowledge to my peers, particularly those who I work with, that I'm thinking about leaving. There's a whole lot of letting people down, letting God down, whatever. I just thought that was interesting. 75%, so isolated, alone, that's what I think you're leaving, and 80% of them, well, you know we haven't looked at that, but 80% of them are in teams. So yeah, so those top three reasons I thought were interesting and they kind of make sense. I found them interesting, yeah.

Valerie Ling:

Did you pick up those dynamics in your publications?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Oh no, I know. So I've measured loneliness myself. But even talking to Christian workers, I know, and in my organization I do staying interviews for our missionaries. I've been around for a while. I do debriefs, I do exit interviews and, yeah, there is that sense within us of I don't want to let my people down. Have I talked to people about this beforehand? I used to find out all this information exit interviews. I thought if only we'd known this earlier. That's why now, after people have been involved for two years in our organization, we do a staying interview and basically it's the same questions. Don't tell anyone as the exit interview, ooh a lot of podcasts is gonna be broadcast.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

But you find out this stuff early.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah what's the problem? Oh, there's multiple factors. There's gonna be factors about job fit that's gonna be important. There'll be factors about recovery and workload and balance and that kind of thing. There's gonna be stuff about irritations that are really now staying to rub and form the blister. There's gonna be stuff about longevity issues, financial viability and all manner of things. You find out all manner of things. My point is is that when people leave, they usually don't leave for just one issue, probably a four, three or four or five. But here's a chance to get a bit of a pulse early about what are some of the pressure points that we could do something with now, while there's still some motivation and desire.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah, that's a great point, grant. It makes me stop to think that it also then depends on what you measure or what you're asking, because if there are multiple points, it's almost like you've got to be aware of what those points are that are going to impact. So from your experience, just from asking those questions at the two-year mark, just anecdotally, even, what would be some of the common multiple reasons?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Oh yeah, Well, it's probably at eight to 10. And usually I think there's gonna be some degree of expectation, unmet expectations, the expectations for whether it be more successful in ministry than I am, expectations to have seen more than I do, expectations to not do as much admin as I'm doing. So there's gonna be probably some degree of unmet expectations, either about my own ministry success or about maybe my own spirituality or something my expectations. There's probably gonna be some degree of job misfit, because there's so many things Christian workers have to do. You've got to be good at all these different things, and some of them we might be good at, and some of them that's what we got in the ministry for. But now I've also got to intervene with conflict and I've also got to raise funds and I've also got to manage volunteers. I've also got to be a counsellor and I've also got to be a great scholar. Now, not all of those things are gonna fit me, and so how do I figure out where the ones that are draining me particularly were, the ones that are actually I'm thriving in, and how do we manage that? There's gonna be some kind of a job redesign.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Often there's ambiguity what am I meant to be doing? I can feel like I'm never doing enough or I'm never good enough, because how do I measure what I'm doing? How do I stop for a weekend or a day off if I feel like I don't know if I've done enough this week? So there's ambiguity. We could go on. All that's gonna lead to workover mode probably. But then the other things you've mentioned isolation that that can be there, that's probably gonna be there. Just spiritual vitality Often we can live 18 months off our initial, so spiritual vitality is gonna be in there. There might be some financial concerns. There's a whole lot the change of society, the change in roles. There's a few of the ones that often do come up.

Valerie Ling:

Now, given that ministry personnel generally don't have great levels of self-awareness in general, if you're asking these questions, are people able to answer with self-awareness, or do you have to know what to ask?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

I don't think the questions I ask are particularly amazing. I will ask questions like what are some of the things you just really love, what are some of the things you're really finding difficult? And then I think about different categories of what you might find difficult the actual role, part of your role, relationships, your own personal life, recovery, family. So I'm not asking rocket science, but questions. But I find people are pretty good.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

The reason why we do this around the two year mark is that's when you start to feel the hotspot. You know, when you go for a long run, if you're a long runner not that I'm not, I am, but anyway. So I'm told I've done a lot of walking maybe, but before you get a blister, you'll get what they call a hotspot in the place that we're walking Around the two year mark. The initial shine has often worn off and, as you know, the big issue with burnout is the chronicity of the exhaustion, and so you can suck it up for maybe a year, pushing out to 18 months, but you're probably gonna start to see some hotspots arrive then. So by the time we're starting to ask these questions with a little bit of probing, people are aware that they're struggling and if there's a relationship of trust or security, people are already quite open.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah, Well now, interesting that you say there's a relationship of trust and security. If I jump to the personal violence questions that I asked, really interesting In the last 12 months the level of offensive behaviour experienced by you personally. Now again, I can't really define this. It's a little bit like a test of projection. It's how you interpret it and you can endorse more than one as well. So you can see that some really sad things you know threats of violence, sexual harassment, physical violence, you know was endorsed, and then we've got feeling bullied, being subject to unpleasant teasing, conflicts and quarrels, gossip and slander. What did you tell me when you saw that? Well, the conflicts and quarrels that makes total sense.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

I haven't thought much about gossip and slander, but that's high. I thought that was high. And again, what are people meaning when they're saying that? But I think that's a good point? And again, what are people meaning when they're saying that that's high? And again, what are people meaning when they're saying that? Yeah, I'm not surprised at that. In fact, I wouldn't have been surprised if that was even a little bit higher, because often when people are involved in conflicts and quarrels particularly when it depends upon the church but there is a it depends on the determination, but there's a point of vulnerability.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

If I am quarreling with influential parishioners, to be honest, there's a point of real vulnerability and I can feel bullied in a conflict. So I was interested by that. I thought that might have been a bit higher, but I was interested as well in terms of looking at the correlations, how conflicts and quarrels had more of a drain than bullying. Now, that really surprised me. So again, I'm just thinking well, what is going on there? But it does go to the point of what are we doing with conflict? How do we disagree well and remain unified rather than seeing, unless we agree 100% about things, we need to be in this protracted conflict. So I think the way we think about conflict, I think that's an area that really deserves a lot more work. I think about John Gottman and his work or approach with conflict in a marital state and I think that has a lot of legs for Christian workers actually.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah, I agree, as a business we're really turning our eye to the psychosocial hazards of a workplace because we've got legislation. And I was struck by how much of this dynamic, the constant conflict, feeling like you're going to workplace where maybe you're not liked, people don't agree with you, that people are going to say stuff about you and your family From a psychosocial hazard as an employer, knowing what's going on in your workplace, that if someone is turning up to that every day, that's just going to build up because your livelihood is tied to it. And in ministry, your sense of calling conviction, your love for Jesus and knowing the consequence of what happens when people don't know Jesus, you kind of get a sense of you're trapped, like how do you get out of this space? And maybe an assumption that but this is, I often hear this. But isn't this what ministry is meant to be all about? It's a tough gig, right? Nobody signed up for an easy job. You're always going to have conflict and yet I can see from the standards in the workplace we wouldn't say that.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. And that's when you get into the zone of post traumatic stress symptomology. Whatever you want, I'm not not wounded, I agree with you. No, that's not the diagnosis and stuff, but just trying to say there's symptomology there where I'm learning and you know, I'm learning that this is not a safe place and I'm helpless.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah, and you talked about the cognitive deficits. If we kind of, you know, look at the whole picture and it's nice to be able to bounce this with a fellow psychologist, because this has probably been on my heart for a long time is, you know, when you talk about the cognitive deficits, this level of chronic stress, this level of toxicity and conflict rejection that you feel, you know, lack of safety, plus the pandemic, you know it will eat into those resources. You're from a psychological health, but just from you know how much your own body and mind can cope with you know. So I'm looking at this because you know you. I think I told you this, but this was my last minute question that I threw in. I was like, hey, let's just see if you know some of what I'm seeing. Walk into our clinic door. What's? Whether people will endorse these items. I'm really concerned. And at which point do we say this is normal ministry conflict, do you know?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

great, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I think also because, because, because, like, like, a therapist will certainly have a skewed perspective because of, well, who is a therapist? See people who are struggling, and so obviously that that's true. But, yes, the the, the idea about that, this is what this is what should be expected in ministry. I'm just not, I'm just not very satisfied with that. Yeah, I, I, yeah, I don't like the sound of that. Like I can appreciate where some people might coming from, for that I just the damage that it does to people and then to their families and then to the children of those families, I really I just find that very distressing.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yes, so so we're talking here probably about the difference between conflict versus bullying, workplace in civility area, and I think that's that whole workplace in civility literature would be helpful to look at in terms of what is acceptable, what isn't acceptable. And hey, you know, let's face it, I know there's legislation, legislation, legislation out there about bullying and stuff. But you know, companies outside of the church not like, they're doing great here, but but there's something about inside the church where our views are turbo charged with our spiritual convictions. They can just leave people actually forgetting to behave like the person who founded our faith in the first place. Yeah, so anyway, yeah, I'm just glad to go on here.

Valerie Ling:

No, I think that's interesting what you said about workplace in civility. Again, as an employer, I'm reflecting because we're going through our work health safety procedures and going through our handbooks and the number of times we've had to update it grant to stay not just relevant to legislation. But you know new things happen in the world, like new kinds of unkindness in the world, like we've got to be aware of. You know what's appropriate and inappropriate to put into social media interactions with one another as staff. You know what is appropriate in terms of what is a fatigue, what? How do you define fatigue in the workplace?

Valerie Ling:

You know like it's not just as simple as your workload, but there's all these other things demand, pace, decision making, the amount of responsibility you have, the risk that you hold in a job as well.

Valerie Ling:

Right, and we've just been going through our own fan book and to some extent it does define to us what, what, what is considered professional conduct and also what is considered conduct that keeps yourself and your workmates safe, not just the heavy lifting things or you know whether or not you're using equipment unsafely, but workplace dynamics. You know what is actually considered appropriate and inappropriate and having constant conversations about what is appropriate and inappropriate in the workplace, and I wonder whether that's part of the confusion in churches. Because what you know, we know we're meant to love one another. We know we're meant to serve one another, we know we're meant to be other person centered, but how do we then know when we're just being selfish or demanding or even threatened about our own position? Do you know like I feel so strongly about this and you don't, and one of us is wrong, and I know it's not me and I'm willing to put a gospel stake on that.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah, and I think the difficulty, another difficulty is with the dynamic is that when, when people, when I go to church, I don't go to church as it's my workplace, now for my, my, my, minister, it is their workplace but it's not my workplace, and so they can be like a bit of a disconnect from the community about what is this place.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah, what are.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

I'm a little looser, maybe it's a little more like my family, yeah, yeah. So there can be a bit of that kind of stuff too, playing in like what's what? How do I, how do I view what I'm doing here? I'm a Christian worker perspective it's my workplace, others it's not, and that just adds to that in the complexity of lines of authority and expectations.

Valerie Ling:

And so if we look at the picture now, this happy picture, loneliness, thinking, you know, worrying that my family suffers, plus the work stress, and now this conflict, the picture that I'm wondering is how do you get yourself out of that? Or what resources you know from your model really speaks into that space.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah, well, you know, yeah, I can say a lot about that. One thing I would just say would be this material is great to look at together with people who are Christian workers, clergy but to be honest, I think we need to talk about it not just as a person who's in the clergy, but actually as the community. So for the eldership or the parish council or just the other people appreciate what's it like for these people who we're looking to lead us. I think there's something about just the appreciation or listening to one another about one another's experience in the community. I think that's really important.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

But the first thing that I want to probably think about is looking at well, what are some of my biggest demands? Like, there's a whole lot of things in the research here, but what's some of the biggest ones for me? And I would just start with a bit of problem focus coping there, what can we do to take some action on that? What would be some resources that could help us cope with that, or to help us change that, or to help us get rid of that or to help us? So I would say, what's some job resources that could help me deal with my job demands?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

I'd certainly also want to be thinking about my own spiritual life and trying to work out what is it that God is asking of me, what is he not asking of me, what are my core convictions or callings, and where am I actually? Have I been pulled away from those when I'm trying to do other things that maybe are inappropriate? So I would certainly want to start with having a good, clear idea about what is my particular areas of pressure and what could we start to do about that as a community. So I said the word looking for resources to help, but I really think within the community, that's where I think we need to discuss that together. So one thing is actually for someone to try to share that with a warden or an elder or the elderships. I definitely want to say something about that, to give a bit of the reality of what's going on so that people understand.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah, have you got any positive examples where that's being worked out in the context of someone who's burnt out lonely? High conflict in the church?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Have you seen some encouraging I have and I have actually and that's sometimes what I mean by there's a bit of a complicit I could be complicit with what's going on around me. There's often my own fear of failure, my own desire to be approved of my own interest, to not be rejected or to have me live up to my own unrelenting standards. Yeah, all of that stuff prevents me from saying you know what? I don't think I can keep working 64 hours a week, and so I have seen some positive things around that when the community has an understanding of that person's current experience. But that can be difficult. I'm not saying it always works, but I actually have seen that work. Yeah.

Valerie Ling:

And is there a difference in terms of how long you've stayed in the conflict, like you were saying that you find that the two-year mark is a good one? Is there something that maybe just routinely we preempt by going, you know, your first two years in the role. Let's keep in close contact, close communication, close perspective trading between yourself and your parish council, or yourself and your congregation.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah, that's a good point, Valerie. Yeah, what I like about the two-year mark is that it's done then with someone who's external to their everyday environment. So sometimes within a team where there's a lot of constant monitoring, it can kind of lose a bit of its. It's almost like the water temperature is rising but the frog's still saying, you know, I feel fine, and maybe every six months, and that's why it's helping to have a little bit of an external person as well. So to have someone like yourself or your practice, have someone check in and go through some kind of key questions and even the odd ticker box thing that can just take a bit of the pulse, that could be helpful. I think what is really helpful too in terms of that within the team is just having something like a clear personal development plan or a self-care plan and a clear job description that has my particular focus or focus that I can Now. That could be good to measure every couple of months.

Valerie Ling:

It's not Be a part of it. Who defines that?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

I think that's got to be defined by both and it depends upon seniority. So in the team context, that's what I would say. So if I'm brand new into a role, then yeah, I'm going to be doing lots of different things. I might not have as much of a say in my role because I'm new and I'm learning, I'm trying. But same with a personal development plan. I think there's got to be a conversation that has to happen about that. But I would say that kind of like a personal development or a self-care plan combined with a bit of my role focus. I think there's some things that do go well in a team context that can be touched on regularly. Some of the more kind of psychological stuff yeah, I just don't want people to get too used to it, if you know what I mean. Yeah, just some thoughts. Yeah, I don't know if it's right.

Valerie Ling:

I don't mean either. This is why we I think we've got a labor together. I think you're right, it's as a community, isn't it? So I mean, some of the positive examples we've seen is certainly where a congregation and their ministry staff have a lot more personal connection as well, not just with the role. They're doing things together, just building their friendships and taking the time to understand the family situation as well, allaying some of the stress and the threat and the fears that are, you know, my kids.

Valerie Ling:

They're not going to sit still in church and congregation members just coming around that and going mind didn't either. You know, just really normalizing that. And then it's almost like you've got personality qualities that we want in our ministry leaders. It's also, then, having those qualities in people in the church, you know, being really open, being curious, being, you know, being looking to see how they can create some out of the box solutions, maybe letting go a little bit of what the last minister did it this way. Or you know, we really like having it done this way to kind of have a conversation of not so much that this is going to change our church, but because I know you and I know your family and I'm understanding that you guys have, you know, this unique history or situation. Let's have a look and see what we can, sort of you know, figure out around you as well.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely Like that would be. That's the idea, you know, where there's a genuine genuineness on both sides. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Valerie Ling:

And I think we've also seen it really work when churches work together in a seasonal approach as well, that what's happening now in the ministry family's life you know can change in the next few months or the next six months, you know, as their kids change, or that you know you have aging parents or health and things like that and kind of relaxing into a rhythm as well, that this might be okay for now or this might be really difficult for now. We might be able to sort of have a conversation a couple of months down the line or let's just try this for now.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Again, I think that's excellent and it's that engagement together, like as a body. You know we're a body and we've got to play our roles and just needing to do that together is really important. Yeah.

Valerie Ling:

I'm really keen to ask you one more bit about the research because you and I went back and forth. I really appreciate it. You're stretching me in thinking about my questions. But you know some of the destructive leadership behaviors which I've basically said. I pulled out a couple of questions from the literature that that was more about forceful and inappropriate leadership, not narcissistic personality disorder, not toxic or abusive. But you know ministers being asked, you know if you were on us in the last 12 months, you know, did you use a kind of blaming, punitive, forceful type of leadership and that relationship with burnout? Either way, obviously you could be tired and burnt out and use these behaviors or use these behaviors and then, as a result, the consequences that you know, you create mess for yourself and you get tired. What do you think about that?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Yeah, I think both of them are true 100 percent. 100 percent Because usually there's a dynamic between leaders and a team where where you know if we're the transformational lead, even if we're the transformational leader, you know we're working together looking for a common goal. I'm playing a role as a leader, but it's that role of playing together to get to our common goal. That's the ideal. But even there, if I'm playing my role as a leader, I'm really trying to serve the team to help us get to our common goal. But if I perceive that people that I'm trying to serve are not empowering my leadership, it's pretty easy for me to stop serving and start demanding. And if someone who, if I'm trying to empower someone's leadership and I perceive that they've stopped serving, they've started demanding, I'm going to stop empowering your leadership. So I think there's a, there's a cycle there.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

It's not so much empowering the leader empowering the team. Actually it's the opposite. As a team member, I need to empower my leader to enable them to do their role to help us get to our common goals. Where I perceive that they're stopping to serve me to get us to a common goal, I don't mean serve me, as in that, but the leader's got to be actually yeah, I'm, I'm serving us in our role. To get there, I will stop empowering them. And vice versa, if I perceive as a leader someone who's not empowering my leadership, I will stop serving and I'll start demanding. So that can come from the dynamic or it can just come. I'm too tired to go through all this. You always do this. You need a blah, blah, blah because my, I just don't have the energy anymore.

Valerie Ling:

Yeah, I mean you and I are talking. I mean I would love to ask you do you have like a concrete example of that first one, where you know you said that transformational leadership is about the follower empowering the leader. What does that look like?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Oh, it means that means that I'm going to. I recognize that we are actually all together moving towards our common goal, and and and as we're doing that, each of us have different roles to play. As Romans 12 says, if he gives his leadership, then lead, and so so, if, if someone has the role of the leader, I need to actually accept their leadership over me. Now, what does that look like? Well, it means I'm going to allow them to make the odd call that I might not agree with. It means it means that I'm going to. Actually, if they set a boundary about what's appropriate, what's not appropriate, in order to move forward, I'm going to be willing to work within that. I'm not going to be a, you know, I'll just agree with everything.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

But there's something about me. I need to accept someone's leadership. You can't force someone to follow you. You could force them to comply, but you can't force them to genuinely follow. And so, same with me, I must accept someone's leadership. If we're going to cooperate together in a really significant manner, I must accept their leadership. You think about a, an orchestra, where there's a conductor up the front. They've got a job to do and and me playing the. Whatever you know I've got to accept their leadership and even if I think I should be playing a lead break here on my violin.

Valerie Ling:

So there's a boundary to that. Is there the grant? Yeah?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

absolutely.

Valerie Ling:

I'm not saying this is a willing willing willing, willing followership is not necessarily blind followership, so clearly yeah in fact, absolutely not, absolutely not.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

You need people to speak up, because in the room, one of us is never going to be the be smarter than everyone, so we need to. We need people to speak up and and we, we now we're getting into issues of how does it, how does a team make decisions? When do we have collaborative leadership, decision making? When do we have consensus? When do we have just one put? We're moving more to that discussion now, but all I'm trying to say is that then a team needs to accept their leader If the leader is going to do the role and if, if I feel like my leadership is not accepted, I will end up forcing and looking for compliance, and that is not going to be a transformational experience. We're going to move towards maybe some of these more destructive means. Yeah, yeah.

Valerie Ling:

To finish up, three questions. Grant, if there is a pastor listening to our conversation and there's just one thing they can walk away with, one thing to make the difference what would you want them to know or do or think about?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

I would really want them to focus on their identity in Christ. I would just want to say that you are much more than your work role. You're an image bearer of the divine. If the Father would say over you, in Christ, you are my child, you are my love. With you, I'm well pleased.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

If you're really exhausted, you might need to hear the words that Jesus said to his disciples when they came back from their first missionary journey. He said to them come with me by yourself to a quiet place and get some rest. I really need to rest first and then attune to the Lord Jesus. I don't mean that, you know, like you go up on a mountainside and come down. I mean in community. They're the first two things I would say. Think about your identity, not just your work role. You're different. Meaningful work is important. Meaningful ministry is important. You're more than that. You're an image bearer of the divine Through the Holy Spirit. Is that work act? I would say that, and then I'd say also, just a batch To come back and listen to the Lord Jesus. I fresh, take some time to replace your energy to do that.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

The other thing I want to say to you is this Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Because of what you're doing, you've transformed lives like mine. You've changed my life has been changed because of people like you who are laboring in church. Thank you. Not only thank you for me, but I thank you for my spouse I relate to very differently than I would Thank you also for my kids, and that their lives are totally different because of your work. In my life. Your role is incredibly significant, incredibly significant, and so I really want to applaud you. As one, timothy says, you are worthy of double honor, and I really, I really mean that what you're doing. I know sometimes we can say things like what impact am I really having here? But in 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 years time, there will be a legacy. There'll be legacy in individuals, families and generations, but you probably won't even know about. But it is happening, and so I just really want to say thank you for your role.

Valerie Ling:

Grant, and if there was a church that was listening to us and they walked away? What is one thing you would want them to think or do or act on after listening to us?

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Really seek to understand your ministry worker. Understand, seek to understand not just conflict with Understand. Give them the gift of them knowing you understand what they're going through, the gift of understanding. Before we can help someone, they need to know we understand them. And so I'd say, before before making big policy changes or saying, hey look, I got an idea, let's take your preaching off your plate for the next six weeks. What do you need that? Understand, try to understand and stick with that. Be curious, ask questions until that person can say of you yes, you get me.

Valerie Ling:

And finally, grant, if we, if someone who's at the policy making denomination level, listening in to us, sort of really thinking about, from a systems point of view, what's one thing you'd like them to walk away with. If I'm, that harder.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

I would. I would say, to ask your people what would help them. So so I have seen, I'd say, what would help them. And, and because sometimes we, we and I do it, I'm in headquarters of our organization, I roll out these initiatives and they're great, no one takes them up. So so I would say we need to ask what will help them. And, and I'd say in the there's going to be three areas.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

I would ask what can we do to help you to see progress in your ministry? What? What online progress in your ministry? What can we do to make that happen, not hinder you from doing that? So that's one thing. What would help you to see bottom line progress? What could we do? The second thing I'd ask is what can we do to have you be fed spiritually, because we give out when we're in Christian ministry and it can be hard to receive, to be ministered to. Is that spiritual direction? Is that you know some conferences, key conferences that people are. So, one, what can help you see progress in your ministry? Two, what will feed you spiritually? And then, three, I would ask the question what's your biggest strain, what's the biggest stress in your life? And I'm asking that question so that I can think about how can we actually relieve that in some way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's three things.

Valerie Ling:

Well, Grant, it's been wonderful. I've really thoroughly enjoyed our conversation and I'm so grateful for your time. Thank you so much, Grant, Thanks.

Dr Grant Bickerton:

Valerie, always love it to see you yeah.

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